contedicavour
New Member
Besides, it would make sense to run a country-to-country deal exchanging WASS Blackshark for SCALP Naval
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French SSN Programme
- Thread starter riksavage
- Start date
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DoC_FouALieR
New Member
What I could gathered about propulsion:
-Two turbines combined with alternators to produce the electric power.
-The main engine is electric (I think the will further develop the permanent magnet synchronous electric engine that is currently onboard the Scorpene class)
Very compact, very efficient and very low vibrations/noise.
-Highest speed are reached using a steam turbine along with the main machine to power the shaft.
Emergency propulsion is based on:
-One diesel to produce alternative current to supply the main power network.
-Another diesel to charge the batteries with direct current.
-A direct current engine as a backup propulsion directly fed by the batteries.
-Two turbines combined with alternators to produce the electric power.
-The main engine is electric (I think the will further develop the permanent magnet synchronous electric engine that is currently onboard the Scorpene class)
Very compact, very efficient and very low vibrations/noise.
-Highest speed are reached using a steam turbine along with the main machine to power the shaft.
Emergency propulsion is based on:
-One diesel to produce alternative current to supply the main power network.
-Another diesel to charge the batteries with direct current.
-A direct current engine as a backup propulsion directly fed by the batteries.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/8500/gdadossierdepressekz8.jpg
DoC_FouALieR
This is extracted from a DGA dossier de presse...
DoC_FouALieR
This is extracted from a DGA dossier de presse...
DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Thanks, but actually I already know about these sheets ;-)
new comms systems come and go and it's not hard to implement most systems on the base of the excisting ones so that's not really a con. I also don't get it why people allways think new is better.. a system that's allready in use is allways better because all the bugs are allready worked out and as far as the UK sonar goes: it's proven to be effective and able to track the most silent subs currently in service (and no, i'm not calling names or sources), ofcourse electronics age fast in current times so also the barracuda electronics will allready be ageing the time they enter service. Sorry to distort the vision of a perfect boat..but no platform is perfect and it takes years to perfect one.
As for size considerations in shallow water conditions: size does matter, wich even the americans found out when doing subtacex in the med
guess u missed the point there, i was just referring to the development cycle, even if progresses are made forward it takes time to finetune them under operational conditions, no system is perfect from the start. There's no need to idiotize me over that, i know damn well what i'm talking about
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #49
BKNO, I have enjoyed reading your lively defence of the Barracuda, you have certainly attempted to both defend and define its future capability. I however still remain somewhat sceptical, why you may ask? Well: it plans to use untried and tested technology, it’s entirely dependent on French expertise, first steel’s not been cut, and weapons proposed have either not been identified (torpedo) or fired from a sub-surface platform before (SCALP). All this says to me - delay, delay, delay, or worse platforms cancelled due to cost overruns. At the end of the day ‘a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush’ or in this scenario ‘a sub in the water (Astute next month) is worth two on the drawing board!’
Also, a quick question, when was the last time a French sub fired a shot in anger?:nutkick
Also, a quick question, when was the last time a French sub fired a shot in anger?:nutkick
contedicavour
New Member
Well well, when was the last time a British sub fired a shot in anger (leaving aside the shot at the Belgrano which had zero ASW defences or a few Tomahawks during Gulf War 2) ?
I do agree with you however that the programme is exposed to delays and potentially some cuts, though not for the same reasons you mention. I'll explain myself : a lot of the technology comes from the SSBNs and the Scorpenes, which will help. What won't help is that the budget will priorize the 2nd carrier and the SSBNs, so the SSNs and the FREMMs will suffer cuts and delays due to budgetary issues. Btw there are rumours around that FREMM numbers will be cut from 17 to 13.
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Alpha Epsilon
New Member
Well British submarines also fired TLAMs during Kosovo and Afghanistan. So the RN SSNs have fired in anger on at least 4 different occasions (Falkland War, Kosovo war, Afghanistan war and Iraq Gulf War II). With the sinking of the Belgrano being iirc the only time a SSN ever sank a major warship in anger.
As for the Barracuda: Yes, nice submarine, a vast improvement over the Rubis, but imo still too small. The small size means that it will have just 20 weapons on board. Compare that to the 38 of the Astute class or 40 of the Virginia and you know what I mean. I also wonder what implications the size has on noise, speed (so far quoted as "> 25kn") and endurance ("just" 70 days). So for me, despite the price difference it has to be the Astute SSN.
contedicavour
New Member
Well it comes down to costs. Who can afford to build 8 Astutes ?
Oh and it also comes down to optimal size for the Mediterranean/Red Sea/Persian Gulf scenarios, for which (as previously mentioned in this thread) big SSNs are not optimal.
I'd say the Astutes are perfect for the Atlantic Ocean, the Barracudas are best for the Mediterranean.
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Oh and it also comes down to optimal size for the Mediterranean/Red Sea/Persian Gulf scenarios, for which (as previously mentioned in this thread) big SSNs are not optimal.
I'd say the Astutes are perfect for the Atlantic Ocean, the Barracudas are best for the Mediterranean.
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DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Rumours rumours.. From experience we could already considered it'll be 13. But that's still a nice bargain, even if not replacing a worthless A 69 aviso by a Fremm number by number.
For the smaller size of the Barracuda, it is very large compared to Rubis, and require a smaller crew!
To operate an Astute you need almost 100 crewman, and only 60 for the Barracuda, that's cutting down about 30% of space dedicated to crew quarters... and less food and water for same endurance. Plus the fact that propulsion is controlled from ahead of the sub, resulting in more compact installations.
Consequently I don't see why the Barracuda would not be as silent as other modern subs like Astute or Virginia, given the progress that has already been made on Le Triomphant SSBN.
contedicavour
New Member
True, at the end it would mean replacing the 7 Leygues, 2 remaining destroyers of the preceding class, potentially the 2 AAW FFGs and 6 remaining avisos with 13 FREMMs. Still a very good deal.
I wonder if our 2 governments shouldn't join forces on 2 AAW versions of FREMM with active-EMPAR and 32 Sylver A50 VLS for Aster-30.
bonne soirée
DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Absolutely, as I already said in some talks with navy officer in France, I regret that we do not have reduced the number of Fremm for instead built at least 4 Horizon class AAW ships, because I think we really lack this kind of very capable AAW platform. But if it can be achieved with lower costs 'AAW' Fremms, it would be even better.
Alpha Epsilon
New Member
The crew of the Astute class is 98 and that includes "at sea trainees". I think the actual crew number required for operation is 84. That is a reduction by at least 32 compared to the Trafalgar class (with a crew of about 130). The main reasons for the size difference are the larger weapon numbers and the probably (not sure) larger reactor that doesn't need refuelling of the Astute class. And of course the different traditions with British SSNs being traditionally quite a bit larger than French ones.
As said, I do not know, it's just iirc a rough rule that larger submarines have more space for "accoustic insulation".
Well, only if another programme follows. Otherwise the it would mean 13 FREMMS, 5 Lafayettes and 2 Horizons.
Perhaps they'd buy about 8 largish OPV-types, similiar to what the A69s are.We have every reason to believe the Barracuda is going to be a very quiet and effective submarine. One of the more interesting Barracuda web sights Ive found. http://www.asd-network.com/editorial_detail.asp?ID=2
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #58
Contedicavour the General Belgrano was escorted by two destroyers, the ARA Piedra Buena (D-29) and the Bouchard (D-26) (both also ex-USN vessels), as Task Group 79.3. They made a vain attempt to use depth charges following the initial attack on the Belgrano before running away. So your comment about lack of ASW support is not entirely correct. Antiquated yes, but at least they had a go!
Agian when was the last time a French sub fired a shot in anger?
Agian when was the last time a French sub fired a shot in anger?
radiosilence
jints
PNS Hangor, a Daphne class submarine sank INS Khukri a Type 14 ASW frigate in 1971. Don't recall any other incidents after that.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #60
I would be interested to know whether, like the UK and US, its normal procedure for a single French SSN to escort the designated nuclear deterrent SSBN when on patrol. If so one would assume that the patrol would be global in scope thus decreasing the likelihood of detection (rather than restrict the patrol to the Med only). If this is the case a true blue water SSN is required, which in my view somewhat mitigates the arguments for smaller boats better suited to operating in the Mediterranean. The escorting SSN must have the same endurance, stores capacity etc., to mirror that of the SSBN unless you plan on switching the escorting SSN half-way through the deployment. This is I believe one of the reasons why the UK/US continue to build large SSN’s.
The 1971 incident was, I assume, during the Indian / Pakistan war, which ultimately resulted in modern Bangladesh?
The 1971 incident was, I assume, during the Indian / Pakistan war, which ultimately resulted in modern Bangladesh?