Grand Danois
Entertainer
Seems to be a rehash of old news...
French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Now you are confusing me. 
radiosilence
jints
This cat and mouse game will continue. There are reports of hezbollah rearming as well as Israeli overflights over Lebanon. The status quo will continue until a peace agreement is signed.
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Stryker001
Banned Member
Hizbollah are a ‘criminal entity’ that has no legal standing in the world and thus no agreement can be signed with them. I agree that it remain the status quo until the next engagement.
The build by Hizbollah in Lebanon was meant to be for a large offensive to coincide with the Iranian nuclear program if it was threatened by the IDF and or the US.
The kidnapping of IDF personnel was used as the catalyst by the Israelis to launch a wider offensive. That is why Hassan said if he knew the response of the IDF he would not have sanctioned the kidnappings, it set their battle plan back by at least 12 months.
Hopeful with the UN and increase 'vigilance' by the Lebanese army another 6 to 8 months can be added on before the IDF have to attack them again.
The build by Hizbollah in Lebanon was meant to be for a large offensive to coincide with the Iranian nuclear program if it was threatened by the IDF and or the US.
The kidnapping of IDF personnel was used as the catalyst by the Israelis to launch a wider offensive. That is why Hassan said if he knew the response of the IDF he would not have sanctioned the kidnappings, it set their battle plan back by at least 12 months.
Hopeful with the UN and increase 'vigilance' by the Lebanese army another 6 to 8 months can be added on before the IDF have to attack them again.
radiosilence
jints
They might be terrorist but they are currently part of the Lebanese political scene. They need to be included in any negotiated settlement between Israel and Lebanon as they have demonstrated their relevants during last summer's war.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Agreed. Its the only constructive way to structure any peace settlement. Simply exileing them will not help the problem, and will basicaly undermine any peace deal that is struck. In a conflict like this the only constuctive way to achieve some sort of an end is to talk, even with terrorists.
It could also be argued that since Israel is occupying Palestinian territory, it would make the Hezbollah a resistant group, much like the French resistance during WWII. Then again; I suppose most of us reason from our own tribal loyalties with its implemented agendas and flawed semantics as to prove and seek validation of the rightness of both our reasoning and actions, kind of symptomatic…innit?
All is as it should, if they are attacked they are more than entitled to respond as they see fit. As would any other sovereign state be entitled too, they are there as observers, not as targets.
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It seems to be working in Northern Ireland.
Stryker001
Banned Member
The concessions are too great a burden for Israel to accept….the US will not allow Iran any nuclear capability. What goes on in Israeli territories is not the business of Hizbollah. In fact, the negotiation cannot go forward as Hizbollah and the States that back it call for the destruction of Israel. Even if they stated they do not want the destruction of Israel in any negotiation, the fact is it would be a stalling tactic as that is one of their key objectives.
There is no solution to the issue other than repeated conflicts to limit the military capabilities of Hizbollah in Lebanon. Northern Ireland is not the Middle East. Israel has already made concessions in regards to the Palestinian issue.
There is no solution to the issue other than repeated conflicts to limit the military capabilities of Hizbollah in Lebanon. Northern Ireland is not the Middle East. Israel has already made concessions in regards to the Palestinian issue.
I believe when Israel pulled out of Lebanon, the UN said, Israel is no longer occupying Lebanon.
So now, what is Hizbollah resisting?
Hizbollah is an Iranian proxy/army in Lebanon. I'm not sure how Israel fits into that, except for Iranian strategic defense. Why doesn't Lebanon and Iran work out an agreement?
Israel is the target (see Hamas/Hizbollah/Sryria/Iran). Like any target, it is to be hit and removed, another "peace deal" is a joke. Again, Hizbollah is a "Lebanese resistance" group. Israel has removed itself from Lebanon... Yet, Hizbollah won't give up it's "resistance"? Perhaps, it's resisting exitance?
Shebaa is still being occupied by Israel and Shebaa belongs to Lebanon. That said; I did mix up the different fractions, it should have stated Hamas and not Hezbollah, I apologize for the mix up.
This it both interesting and complicated; I think that the Iranien uses the Lebanese as a pawn, as a mean to disturb the equilibrium more than paving the way for them (example: Hezbollah) as a proxy army. I think that most of the Arabic world views the Palestinians in very much the same way, as a pawn. But this is of course purely speculations, and I'm going way off topic here as well.
Stryker001
Banned Member
Hizbollah (party of Allah) has been around for 25 years and started as a Lebanese terror organisation during the first Lebanon war 1983 established by the Syrians.
Using the sociological imagination the reason Hizbollah has relevance in Lebanon even thought Israel pulled out is because it is a fundamental part of Lebanese social and political stratifications.
As a radical Shi’ite Islamic organisation, it is used to further the strategic goals of Syria and Iran. The Lebanese democracy is an illusion generated by Hizbollah, as has been proven the Lebanese military and Government have little influence on what Hizbollah wishes to do inside Lebanon. Lebanon is a proxy AO for Hizbollah and those that back it to directly strike Israel. Between a Hizbollah dominated Lebanon and a Palestine dominated by Hamas. Hamas and Fatah are fighting for control of Palestine. Israel will not deal with Hamas. Hamas has developed a similar structure between civilan services, eductation etc, along with its military wing. And are strongly aligned with Hizbollah with the common goal to destroy Israel as one major objective.
Palestine has no future under Hamas.
The structure of Hizbollah is far greater that any other terrorist organisation in the world, this is because of their civilan and military wings and its endless ability to recruit. This can be seen by their presence in South America, planning for attacks inside the US, if the Iranian nuclear program comes under threat by the US and or Israel.
Using the sociological imagination the reason Hizbollah has relevance in Lebanon even thought Israel pulled out is because it is a fundamental part of Lebanese social and political stratifications.
As a radical Shi’ite Islamic organisation, it is used to further the strategic goals of Syria and Iran. The Lebanese democracy is an illusion generated by Hizbollah, as has been proven the Lebanese military and Government have little influence on what Hizbollah wishes to do inside Lebanon. Lebanon is a proxy AO for Hizbollah and those that back it to directly strike Israel. Between a Hizbollah dominated Lebanon and a Palestine dominated by Hamas. Hamas and Fatah are fighting for control of Palestine. Israel will not deal with Hamas. Hamas has developed a similar structure between civilan services, eductation etc, along with its military wing. And are strongly aligned with Hizbollah with the common goal to destroy Israel as one major objective.
Palestine has no future under Hamas.
The structure of Hizbollah is far greater that any other terrorist organisation in the world, this is because of their civilan and military wings and its endless ability to recruit. This can be seen by their presence in South America, planning for attacks inside the US, if the Iranian nuclear program comes under threat by the US and or Israel.
It was founded as a resistance group as a response to the Israeli attack on Lebanon and the Israelis continues occupation of southern Lebanon; they are still active in fighting the Israelis at Shebaa,and I believe that they were financed by Iran.
Within any given group, within any given society, regardless of race or religion fanatics will be present. Those fanatics will have either a big or a small impact as well as influence within the society / group in which they operate. There are Zionist groups within the Jewish community in Israel that wishes to destroy the Palestinian population, and that also wish to get rid of all Muslims currently present in the region. I do not hold them in any higher regard than their Muslim fanatical counterparts, regardless of statments made as well as not made by either group.
That might very well be true, than again; I can’t see that they have any future at all the way things are going. I would go so far and state that the entire Middle East is on the verge of war, so in terms of any ones future down there, it looks fairly grim.
I don’t underestimate them nor do I assume that they have those capabilities either. Be as it may; since 911, I’m most certainly sure that the Americans are in the loop, so to speak.
Note: I do not belong to either “tribe” and as such I have no personal / or religious investment in this region. Any further replies and reasoning’s from your part are bound to shed some light on your stance in the matter. I’m an observer, trying to look from both groups perspective.
(Surprised no moderator has closed this thread yet, I think were posting on "borrowed" time here Stryker)
Back on track shall we...
What’s your opinion and views on this one?
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Per your Note @ Stryker (I believe):
As long as people post legitimate information that can be supported or help a person's understanding of all the circumstances involved in this thread (which I think you agree with), there should be no reason for the moderator to close it down. Yes, the title of the thread is about France/Israel. But there have been several other issues that people have brought up, as they are interesting and intimately related to the topic. Shying away from relevant information, opinions, questions, contributions, discussions, or even some facts, does not help anyone. If mentioning: France, Germany, Israel, the EU, Syria, Iran, Hizbollah, Hamas, F16s, Ships, Radar Systems, UAVs, AAM, etc... all in the same thread because there might be a "PC Taboo," even though the issues are related, than why have any discussion regarding the ME and "Defense Talk"? That would be a good formula for ruining a very good web site like this one.
There's a big difference between legitimate disagreement, misunderstandings/understanding, serious arguments, and pure political rants. Moreover, these days it seems as if there is reason that the ME is a hot topic in "Defense Talk," as so much in "Defense" directly pertains to the ME region.
Obviously, I'm not a Mod, but IMO, I think it would be a shame to close down a thread that still has merit today.
Again, JMHO!
I think directly reading the UN language relating to resolution 425/426, provides for a better representation of the facts, and even the reason the UN is still in Lebanon/Syria today.
Fine, Hizbollah was founded in Lebanon by Iran, as a resistance group to Israel's 1978 occupation of Lebanon-- presumably to liberate Lebanon, for the Lebanese people.
Israel, fully withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and completely complied with UN resolutions 425/426. Even Kofi recognized this, as did UN. Annan, almost mockingly presents an 11th hour objection by the same people in Lebanon, who had already "signed off" on the resolution (New Info From Syrian Influece). "...the Government of Lebanon informed the United Nations of its new position regarding the definition of its territory" (UN Res. S/2000/460).
In 1923 French and British Drew the boarder lines between Syria, Lebanon, and "Palestine " at that time. This same border was established as the Armistice Demarcation Line (ADL) between Israel and Lebanon in 1949 (The ADL Line was recognized by the UN as the interational boarder). Neither Israel nor Lebanon ever made a claim that either State was occupying any of the other's territory until 1978 (Israel's invasion of Lebanon). Israel took land from Syria in 1967 (the 6 day war). Those lands included the Syrian Shebaa (area) Farms. The Land never belonged to Lebanon, this is the reason Lebanon never made an "occupation" claim after 1967's six day war (logic and maps).
In fact, it was only recent Lebanese Gov'ts have claimed that Shebaa is Lebanese land. Actually, the 1949 ADL was considered sacrosanct. In, the 1989 Ta'if Accord which established the Second Lebanese Republic explicitly calls for adherence "to the truce agreement signed on March 23, 1949" and implementation of UN Resolution 425. When Israeli forces invaded southern Lebanon in 1978, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 425, which called upon Israel to "withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory" and put in place the UN Interim Force in Lebanon [UNIFIL] "for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces."
The official position of the UN has always been that Resolution 425 required Israeli forces to withdraw to the pre-1978 line of separation (i.e. to the 1949 ADL). Israel decided to unilateraly withdraw from Lebanon in 2000 and and comply with UN 425 by pulling back to the ADL line, as reqired by UN 425. It was only at that time, when Lebanon (and Syria/Iran Hizbollah) realized that Israel was going to really withdraw, did a last minute claim come from Lebanon that Shebaa was actally their territory (pre-1978).
Suddenly Syrian Land became Lebanese territory? In 1967's Six Day War Israel took/won from Syria the Shebaa Farms... it's a 25 square kilometer area consisting of 14 farms located south of Shebaa, a Lebanese village on the western slopes of Mount Hermon. Since Lebanon was not a participant in the Six Day War, it's an interesting claim, since the 1923 Anglo-French demarcation and the 1949 Armistice line clearly designated the area as Syrian territory (Recognized by the UN).
Military and civilian Lebanese maps produced after 1951 locate the Shebaa Farms on the Syrian side of the border. Lebanese army maps published in 1961 and 1966 specifically pinpoint several of the Shebaa Farms, including Zebdine, Fashkoul, Mougr Shebaa and Ramta, all of which are designated as being located inside Syria. Lebanese Ministry of Tourism maps also show the Lebanese-Syrian border running west of the Shebaa Farms. Timur Goksel, a spokesman for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) said "on all maps the UN has been able to find, the farms are seen on the Syrian side [of the border]"(BBC News [London], 5/25/2000).
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan (at that time) pushed aside the Syrian/Lebanese claim in his report to the UN Security Council and recommended that the line separating the areas of operation of UNFIL and the UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) in the Golan Heights (which would exclude the Shebaa Farms) be used for the purposes of determining Israel's compliance with Resolution 425. His justification for this decision is shown in this direct quotation:
"This UNIFIL-UNDOF line coincides with the border line most commonly found on maps issued by the Government of Lebanon, including those published after 1966. This line has also been accepted by the Government of Lebanon for 22 years in the context of the UNIFIL area of operations. In addition, this same line was approved by the Governments of Israel and the Syrian Arab Republic in their 1974 Disengagement Agreement"
Okay, enough with this point. But Syria/Iran would have lost their proxy army, Hizbollah, if they couldn't keep up the claim of Israeli "occupation." Since then Hizbollah (the Lebanese Resistance Group), has kept up the cross boarder kidnappings and killings, like the one that lead to last year's war... because of Shebaa?!?!
Read the UN Resolution:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a...9006d99bd!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,s/2000/460
It's True, every culture/society/religion has % of crazy people. However, Israel's population is 6MIL (I think), while there are about 1.5B to 2B Muslims... Which "fanatics" have the advantage?
"Zionist groups," either do or don't control the Israeli Military. If they do, those groups who want to get rid of the Palestinians, could probanly have done that by now with the Arms/equipent that Israel buys from us (US). If the "Zionist Groups," are some small segment of the people, and want to "destroy the Palestinian population," I don't recall the last time I've heard of one of these groups carrying out their, "destroy the Palestinian population" mission's.
Again, if Israel (Jews, Christians, Zionists) wanted to, "get rid of the muslim poulation in the region," as you've suggested, I think Israel has had the ability to do that. In fact they've done quite the opposite, having had to fight and win several major wars (i.e. relative to the size of Israel and its population), just to preserve the people's and country's existance. Then, after winning wars that were intended to destroy Israel, the "Zionists" had their excuse and showed their intent to, "destroy the Muslims in the region," by giving land back and making peace with Muslims!?!?
Yes, and this is incredibly sad! The Palestinian People have been used as pawns by Iran and the Saudis (who each "own" their faction). The average Palestinian has little hope while leaders of Hamas and the PA have $$$$ and tickets out of town if things get really bad for them (just like all of the other Leaders of the Arab/Persian Gov'ts in the region).
The Palestinains, Lebanese, and the Muslims living under all of the dictators in the region, are all getting suffering. And then there's the lone democracy, Israel. Her population suffers because of the neighborhood which her people can't leave.
No, it's not a good situation for anybody in the ME, including US (US/CFs)!!
South America has been the quiet secret that nobody in our Gov't talks about. Iran and Hizbollah has had so many years to intrench themselves in areas that aren't policed, they can do anything. We won't do anything to close or southern boarder (other elecction/political reasons), so it's not difficult for them to buy their way accross our boarder. I hope, "we're in the loop too," because it's a potentially huge problem.
I think it was a good idea that sending home the French General (UNIFIL) who said, "we were two seconds away from firing an AAM at two F-15s simulating attacks," was a wise idea. Firing "a" (singular) AAM at 2 F-15s, doesn't make much tactical sense.
I understand Israel doing it's own recon over Lebanon (UNIFIL Appears to Have Failed There), however, I don't understand F16s running a simulated attack on a German Naval Vessel at all! That's plain stupid on the Israeli part. Does anyone know (for sure) if the ship was 50 Miles off-shore or 50 KM off-shore. Regardless, it's not smart at all. Israel has sensitive equipment that they often reposition, in and around Haifa, and Israel's Navy often has to escort "Nato" subs out of her waters... but firing on a frindly vessel doesn't make sense and is flat out idiotic.
Bed Time...
The whole basis for this argument is the fact that the Lebanese-Syrian border was drawn up without regard to land ownership. The Shebaa farms area is land which was associated with the village of Shebaa, & mostly owned & farmed by people who lived in Shebaa. Until 1967, nobody cared much about the border: the Lebanese villagers continued to work their land whichever side of the border it was, & neither Syria nor Lebanon was interested in tidying up a minor anomaly which caused nobody much inconvenience. The Lebanese only got disgruntled when Israel occupied up to the official Syrian border, & cut off the villagers from their farmland. The Syrians later decided that it would be convenient to pretend the land was part of Lebanon - but I found maps on Syrian government websites last year still showing it as in Syria.
1.5 billion maximum.
The Israelis have hit UN posts before, haven't they? The last time it happened one Israeli official said on a TV interview something like "unfortunate but you know they weren't doing their job anyway"
It's easy to understand if some skipper might get an itchy trigger finger when an aircraft simulates an attack. Unfortunate accidents are all too common.
It's easy to understand if some skipper might get an itchy trigger finger when an aircraft simulates an attack. Unfortunate accidents are all too common.
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