Which is the best Light & Medium Naval Helicopter?

[Todjaeger]

I am seeking opinions on which Light Naval Helicopter is the best. My criteria for determining "best" is the following. Which helicopter has the greatest lifting capacity, loiter time, easy of operation & maintenance, lowest cost of operations, longest operational life, and able to support different various packages/capabilities or upgrades.

I am not looking for opinions on which model helicopter is currently equipped with the best avionics or weaponary, I'm more interested in terms of air frame and flight properties.

Similarly, I'm interested in opinions on which Medium Naval Helicopter meets the same criteria.

 

[Sea Toby]

If price is no concern, the Chinook is the best helicopter, but its considered heavy. Without including price and national requirements, its difficult to answer the question. Some of the manufacturers offer a half dozen sizes of helicopters. There are more categories than just heavy, medium, and light.

However I like the EH 101 Merlin for medium and I like the AB 109 for light helicopters. The British usually choose well.

Best medium sized naval helicopter, I like the EH 101 Merlin.
Do you really need a light sized naval helicopter?

 

[contedicavour]

If price is no concern, the Chinook is the best helicopter, but its considered heavy. Without including price and national requirements, its difficult to answer the question. Some of the manufacturers offer a half dozen sizes of helicopters. There are more categories than just heavy, medium, and light.

However I like the EH 101 Merlin for medium and I like the AB 109 for light helicopters. The British usually choose well.

I agree, plus NH90 for light/medium.
Honestly you don't have much of a choice anymore : it's either NH90 or Seahawk (unless you want to try Ka29 Helix ). The fact that even France has ordered Nh90 proves that the days of Panthers/Cougar/Fennec/Dauphin are counted.
For larger sizes, it's EH101 or ... Ospreys , as the USN/USMC are planning to replace the maritime version of Chinook and the other giants (MH53, etc) with Ospreys.
For smaller sizes, there's still some competition around, though the A109/AB139 family holds a large lead on the market.
Since the industry started consolidating, you're left with Sikorsky, Agusta-Westland, Eurocopter EADS and the Russians.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

The industry changes frequently, different manufacturers offering different sized helicopters to meet a new market. For example Sikorsky is introducing the S-92 Superhawk, as its S-60 Seahawks are being outsold by EH101 Merlins. Augusta Bell is introducing the AB 149 to compete with the NH90, as its AB 139 are being outsold by NH90.

Very similar to Airbus and Boeing with the airliners. Its a symbol of the free marketplace. When you consider that the aircraft are expected to last 30 years, one doesn't throw away a 15 year old helicopter to buy a newer better helicopter.

 

[Todjaeger]

Ok, what I was looking to find out (and why I mentioned Medium & Light Naval helicopters) is what type of helicopters are best to operate from hangars on OPV/Frigate/Destroyers.

The Chinook, while a good heavy transport is unsuitable due to the size. With a length of 30m, not including the diameter of the two rotors, I don't believe that it is capable of operating from a hangar aboard something like a frigate. Also, I'm uncertain just how efficient/effective it would be to have a Chinook configured for standard ASW/ASV naval warfare in terms of loiter time, maintenance, etc.

The Merlin, at 22m in length is another fairly sizeable helicopter which to my mind is more geared towards replacing the Sea King in terms of general role. Same applies to the slightly smaller Sikorsky S-92, these seem to mostly geared towards operation as navalised transport, with some SAR function.

For instance, the USCG uses both the HH-60 Jayhawk & the HH-65A Dolphin. Why are they using two different types of helicopter for what appear to be similar roles?

I'm less concerned on which is selling the most of. I'm more interested in which platform works best in support of a ship at sea.

 

[contedicavour]

The industry changes frequently, different manufacturers offering different sized helicopters to meet a new market. For example Sikorsky is introducing the S-92 Superhawk, as its S-60 Seahawks are being outsold by EH101 Merlins. Augusta Bell is introducing the AB 149 to compete with the NH90, as its AB 139 are being outsold by NH90.

Very similar to Airbus and Boeing with the airliners. Its a symbol of the free marketplace. When you consider that the aircraft are expected to last 30 years, one doesn't throw away a 15 year old helicopter to buy a newer better helicopter.

Ehm normally the NH90 is not supposed to be a competitor of the AB139. Agustawestland produces the NH90 in partnership with EADS, so it would be suicidal to position the AB139 against another of its own products. In terms of specifications, the AB139 is lighter than the Nh90. However, the real priority for LUH is Agusta A109Power, so AgustaWestland has an offering of 4 helos from smallest to largest, A109, AB139, NH90, EH101.
Bell is again on its own, AgustaWestland has hardly any partnership left with Bell in terms of new product deployment.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Ok, what I was looking to find out (and why I mentioned Medium & Light Naval helicopters) is what type of helicopters are best to operate from hangars on OPV/Frigate/Destroyers.

The Chinook, while a good heavy transport is unsuitable due to the size. With a length of 30m, not including the diameter of the two rotors, I don't believe that it is capable of operating from a hangar aboard something like a frigate. Also, I'm uncertain just how efficient/effective it would be to have a Chinook configured for standard ASW/ASV naval warfare in terms of loiter time, maintenance, etc.

The Merlin, at 22m in length is another fairly sizeable helicopter which to my mind is more geared towards replacing the Sea King in terms of general role. Same applies to the slightly smaller Sikorsky S-92, these seem to mostly geared towards operation as navalised transport, with some SAR function.

For instance, the USCG uses both the HH-60 Jayhawk & the HH-65A Dolphin. Why are they using two different types of helicopter for what appear to be similar roles?

I'm less concerned on which is selling the most of. I'm more interested in which platform works best in support of a ship at sea.

Actually Merlins are regularly used from the flight decks of DDGs in both the RN and in the Marina Militare Italiana. The hangars are large enough to take Merlins. The new FREMMs are also supposed to be Merlin compatible, though they will operate mainly Nh90.
Anyway, for FFGs I only see in the next few years NH90 or the latest evolutions of the Seahawk (S-92s). The Ka29 Helix will survive in Russian service, and in the Chinese (next to local copy of Dauphin) and Indian navies (next to Sea Kings and the new Dhruvs).
That's it.

cheers

 

[mikehotwheelz]

I was under the impression the Aussies were totally cheesed off with their American naval helicopters ( I can't remember whether they're Kamans or Seahawks) and were opting for the NH90 instead.

Also how about AugustaWestland's Super Lynx that the Brits have just ordered?

 

[Todjaeger]

I was under the impression the Aussies were totally cheesed off with their American naval helicopters ( I can't remember whether they're Kamans or Seahawks) and were opting for the NH90 instead.

Also how about AugustaWestland's Super Lynx that the Brits have just ordered?

The RAN is opting for a version of the NH-90 to replace the venerable Westland Sea King Mk-50 which last I heard was grounded due to airworthiness concerns. There had been a fatal helicopter crash during relief efforts in Indonesia following the 2004 Tsunami afterwhich the Sea Kings were grounded. From what I remember, not too long after they were cleared for operations again, a mechanical fault similar to what caused the crash was found on a different helicopter and the type was grounded again.

The NH-90 is also supposed to start replacing the S-70 Seahawks starting in 2012-2016 time frame. I haven't read anything that indicates the RAN is unsatisfied with the Seahawk performance. I believe it's being replaced just due to accumulated air time. The RAN started operating the OH Perry frigates with Sea Hawks in the early 80's. If replacement starts in 2012 some of the helicopters will have been in service 30 years.

Also, the Kaman Super Seasprites have been having issues. Kaman says they've found the problem and have a fix ready. Not sure if the RAN will accept the fix, or how useful it will really be. The RAN Seasprites were 2nd hand helicopters that were refurbished, so not sure how much remaining air time left.

From what I understand, the way the RAN has been operating, or planned to operate in the case of the Seasprite, is different for the Seahawk & Seasprite. Seahawk was configured for ASW operations with dipping sonar, sonobuoys and lightweight torpedoes. The Seasprite was to primarily be anti-surface, with radar for naval gunfire direction/control and anti-ship missles, but also able to carry out some ASW. When the Sea King was in operation, it was used as a transport helicopter, having been disarmed in 1992. When the NH-90 enters service, I wonder what role it will be configured for, or will it be setup for dual roles? With a size and cargo capacity similar to the Sea King I can easily see it used as a transport, and with the it coming from a NATO Frigate helicopter requirement I can easily see an ASW configuration. What I'm not sure about is an anti-surface role.

As for the Super Lynx, I believe that is configured for dual ASW & ASV, not sure if it's really able to act as a transport though.

Anyone have ideas on what the RAN would do if they don't release the Kaman Seasprite for operations again?

 

[contedicavour]

The RAN is opting for a version of the NH-90 to replace the venerable Westland Sea King Mk-50 which last I heard was grounded due to airworthiness concerns. There had been a fatal helicopter crash during relief efforts in Indonesia following the 2004 Tsunami afterwhich the Sea Kings were grounded. From what I remember, not too long after they were cleared for operations again, a mechanical fault similar to what caused the crash was found on a different helicopter and the type was grounded again.

The NH-90 is also supposed to start replacing the S-70 Seahawks starting in 2012-2016 time frame. I haven't read anything that indicates the RAN is unsatisfied with the Seahawk performance. I believe it's being replaced just due to accumulated air time. The RAN started operating the OH Perry frigates with Sea Hawks in the early 80's. If replacement starts in 2012 some of the helicopters will have been in service 30 years.

Also, the Kaman Super Seasprites have been having issues. Kaman says they've found the problem and have a fix ready. Not sure if the RAN will accept the fix, or how useful it will really be. The RAN Seasprites were 2nd hand helicopters that were refurbished, so not sure how much remaining air time left.

From what I understand, the way the RAN has been operating, or planned to operate in the case of the Seasprite, is different for the Seahawk & Seasprite. Seahawk was configured for ASW operations with dipping sonar, sonobuoys and lightweight torpedoes. The Seasprite was to primarily be anti-surface, with radar for naval gunfire direction/control and anti-ship missles, but also able to carry out some ASW. When the Sea King was in operation, it was used as a transport helicopter, having been disarmed in 1992. When the NH-90 enters service, I wonder what role it will be configured for, or will it be setup for dual roles? With a size and cargo capacity similar to the Sea King I can easily see it used as a transport, and with the it coming from a NATO Frigate helicopter requirement I can easily see an ASW configuration. What I'm not sure about is an anti-surface role.

As for the Super Lynx, I believe that is configured for dual ASW & ASV, not sure if it's really able to act as a transport though.

Anyone have ideas on what the RAN would do if they don't release the Kaman Seasprite for operations again?

Only a few comments :
> if Australia has ordered the NFH version of NH90, it is supposed to run ASW and ASUW operations (with MBDA Marte Mk2, 25+km range, for example). If the purpose were to be transport, then Australia should go for the TTH version, much cheaper, and destined for transport of Marines in amphibious attack missions aboard LPDs/LPHs, or for recovery missions of downed pilots in hostile environments.
> if the second hand Seasprites are unsatisfactory, and if a replacement is needed immediately, I'd opt for second hand Seahawks from the USN, as the S92s enter service.
> Super Sea Lynx are indeed filled up with sensors and the electronics to run them, so very limited space aboard for transport.

cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

Only a few comments :
> if Australia has ordered the NFH version of NH90, it is supposed to run ASW and ASUW operations (with MBDA Marte Mk2, 25+km range, for example). If the purpose were to be transport, then Australia should go for the TTH version, much cheaper, and destined for transport of Marines in amphibious attack missions aboard LPDs/LPHs, or for recovery missions of downed pilots in hostile environments.

The Australian Army & RAN is going with the MRH-90, which I believe will be similar to, but different from, the TTH version. From what I've read it's primarily going to be a transport that can operate from naval vessels without modification or extra marinization needed. No mention of the RAN MRH-90 doing ASW/ASUW operations.
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/jun/20060619.cfm

 

[Aussie Digger]

Only a few comments :
> if Australia has ordered the NFH version of NH90, it is supposed to run ASW and ASUW operations (with MBDA Marte Mk2, 25+km range, for example). If the purpose were to be transport, then Australia should go for the TTH version, much cheaper, and destined for transport of Marines in amphibious attack missions aboard LPDs/LPHs, or for recovery missions of downed pilots in hostile environments.
> if the second hand Seasprites are unsatisfactory, and if a replacement is needed immediately, I'd opt for second hand Seahawks from the USN, as the S92s enter service.
> Super Sea Lynx are indeed filled up with sensors and the electronics to run them, so very limited space aboard for transport.

cheers

The RAN will be getting the TTH version of the NH-90 to start with, as the Sea Kings are currently only used for transport duties. The RAN ASW role is conducted by Seahawk, which is undergoing a significant upgrade over the next few years.

Seasprites are still being evaluated by defence. The issue is that Defence expects yet another $200m plus another 2 years will be required to get them up to operational standard, despite Kaman's press releases... On top of which, their role could be covered by Seahawk with relatively minimal modifications. This might not quite equal the capability provided by Seasprites (if they CAN be brought to an operational level) but it would certainly reduce overall costs that could be brought to a new FULLY capable helo. Alternatively the NH-90 naval variant may be bought in small numbers initially to cover the role of Seasprite with a further order down the track to replace the Seahawk...

Defence is having helo rationalisation imposed upon them by Government as a long term way of reducing cost, despite the various factions within defence bleating about their "pet platforms".

As such I think the most likely way forward for the ADF will be to continue the Seahawk upgrade, possibly with the inclusion of the necessary weapons, sensors to cover the Seasprite role. A few additional 2nd hand Seahawks may be purchased or leased to bolster the fleet to cover training and possibly limited operational scenario's and the NH-90 will be ordered to replace the whole fleet eventually.

 

[Todjaeger]

A little off topic for this tread I know, but still...

Part of the Australian helicopter rationalization plan is to reduce the # of different types of helicopter operated from 10 to 7 different types. I've gone through the list of models that I'm aware of and keep coming up short of ten. Can someone list the different models, and which branches use them?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Part of the Australian helicopter rationalization plan is to reduce the # of different types of helicopter operated from 10 to 7 different types. I've gone through the list of models that I'm aware of and keep coming up short of ten. Can someone list the different models, and which branches use them?

Army: Iroquois (25x), Kiowa (40x), Tiger (22x eventually), Chinook (6x), Blackhawk (35x) and (soon, first 2 will be delivered in 2007) MRH-90 (12x initially).

Navy: Squirrel (not sure but about 18x I believe), Sea-King (6x), Seahawk (16x) and Sea-Sprite (or possible replacement) (11x).

With the recent rationalisation plans anounced and contracts placed, ADF's helo forces will look like this:

Army: Kiowa, (40x) MRH-90, (40x) Chinook (6x), Tiger (22x).

Navy: Squirrel (same), MRH-90 (6x initially) Seahawk (16x) and Seasprite (or replacement) (11x).

Further decisions to be made include:

Joint training helo to replace Kiowa and Squirrel (though RAN and Army are arguing over this, RAN wants a single engine helo, Army wants a twin...)

New Maritime warfare helo to replace Seahawk and whatever option is chosen for Seasprite issue. (NH-90 is a deadset certainty for this).

Additional Chinook helo's. Rumours exist of a further 6x new build CH-47F Chinooks will be acquired and existing CH-47D will be upgraded to "F" standard.

Further batch of MRH-90's to be acquired for Army (possibly up to 12 additional examples).

Hope this helps.