which country will develp 5th Generation fighter first

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faheem

New Member
The Usa , Russia and China they all in the race to become the first
to develp the 5th generation fighter the russian 5th fighter will resemble
the su-47 with a little bit of changes and the chinese are develping fighter
which like the Mig 14.2. i do not no about the usa,s 5th generation fighter

The Russia is facing economic problems and China has fast growing +
Economy where as the Usa has a good economy. so i thick that the first
5th generation fighter will be constructed by China or Usa

Mod edit: Path: F/A-22 developed by U.S has already entered service. Topic closed.
 
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faheem

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
yes i have heard about the F-22 and i have also heard about the cost
that is requried to build only one of these. beside it can not be called
the fifth generation fighter because the JSF and Euro fighter are way better
then the raptor
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
I think the F-22 raptor caz it has been tested and its three varionts will be in service where are the russians want to develop the SU-47 do they have the capebility to design and produce such a kind of plane in this short period of time i dont think so but they might have and on the other side talking about the China .It will always reamin one step backwards firstly the west or the Russian develops then the China develops now the Chinees are having their headace with the J-10 i sujjest that first develop and let it come in service then the J-XX will be in action

I have posted this post before but an unusual error occured other wise my post would be in second place
 

Lightndattic

New Member
The main characteristics of a 5th Generation fighter are improved avionics and incorporation of stealth ideas into the complete design as compared to the 4th generation of fighters (F-14, 15, 16, 18C/D, Tornado, Mir 2000, Mig-29, SU-27). Eurofighter and the Rafale could be considered 5th generation, but most consider them generation 4.5 along with the F-18E/F since they were primarily designed before the 'stealth revolution' but still have incorporated some stealth aspects. The F-22 IS a 5th generation fighter with the JSF, if it successfully makes it through the acquisition process will definately be 5th generation. As of right now, the PAK-FA and Mig-14.2 are all paper planes whereas the F-22 is being delivered to operational squadrons.

Kashifshahzad, I think you may be confusing the F-35 JSF and the F-22 when you say 3 variants. The F-22 will be multirole, but will have only 1 version. The F-35 JSF will have 3 variants (CTOL, Carrier or VF, and STOVL).
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
faheem said:
yes i have heard about the F-22 and i have also heard about the cost
that is requried to build only one of these. beside it can not be called
the fifth generation fighter because the JSF and Euro fighter are way better
then the raptor
Sorry mate...your intelegence & sources both are wrong. JSF is no where near to F-22.

Vertical take off & landing does not make it better than the rest. This is most ppl's assumption which is wrong, completely wrong.

In simple words I'll describe F-22 as the greatest war machine. The best defence against F-22 is not to go against it. Enemies would prefer to stay on ground. No point going after an invisible enemy that would strike you n u wont even knw what hit u.

If you want technical details than highsea, GF & adsH would be glad to tell u abt F-22, EF-2000 & JSF.

BTW the only jet that comes close to F-22 is Ef-2000 but even EF-2000 might not be able to beat it, stealth advantage u c.

USA is the 1st to make the 5th Gen jets. F-22(for A2A missions) & JSF (Multirole). Europeans would be the 2nd with EF-2000, French are the 3rd with Rafale with Russia & China soon to follow.

Russian 5th gen AC would be PAK-FA not Su-47 Birkut. Birkut is a Tech Demon. The MiG-1.42 & 1.44 are also tech demon but not of China. All MiGs are of Russia. Chinese 5th gen AC is known as J-XX at the moment but there is huge speculation that it is the same technology as MiG-1.44. Only its Wind Tunnel Design looks different, but nothing could be said till we see the 1st prototype.
 
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XEROX

New Member
Highsea, I have 2 questions

1. Does the F/A-22 have active radar cancellation technology


2. What happens to its stealth uniqueness when it goes over a certain speed, mach 1.8:)
 

highsea

New Member
PJ-10 BrahMos said:
Highsea, I have 2 questions

1. Does the F/A-22 have active radar cancellation technology
I will answer that with this: There is nothing in the public domain confirms ARC on the F-22. This article may interest you, it describes some of the EW/ECM technologies on the Raptor, and gives a hint of what is not known.
By MICHAEL FABEY
DefenseNews.com

Touted as the world’s next-generation stealthy jet fighters and attack aircraft, the F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will gather battlefield information as well.

The sensor suites on the two planes will turn them into information sponges, promising useful performance as fast-moving intelligence-gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platforms with the datalinks to send real time data to ground troops.

Like the Raptor’s and JSF’s active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, the fighters’ other ISR sensors are incorporated into the plane, the wiring laced throughout their wings and body. This helps keep the aircraft stealthy.

“What the F/A-22 offers that no other fighter aircraft has is a huge amount of processing power linked to an airframe designed for an embedded antenna,†said Loren Thompson, vice president of the Lexington Institute, an Arlington, Va., think tank.

The Raptor combines the ability to pick up electromagnetic emissions across a broad spectrum — from radio waves to infrared light — with a pair of powerful onboard computers with a vast library of signal patterns. This allows the aircraft to collect, process and identify signals in a way no other fighter aircraft can, Thompson said.

“No sensor system is better in aperture, power supply or field of view than the platform carrying it,†he said. The Raptor “will never have the field of view of a satellite and never be able to eavesdrop with the depth of a Rivet Joint.â€

The JSF’s ISR abilities will closely match the Raptor’s, said Jon Waldrop, Lockheed’s international programs director.

Planning for embedded sensors began early in the Raptor’s two-decade gestation. In a 1995 report, “Concurrency and Risk of the F-22 Program,†the Defense Science Board Task Force cited “multiple (15-20) sources of passive surveillance†planned for the Raptor.

“The passive surveillance system includes many stressing performance requirements,†the report said. “Most are beyond anything previously accomplished on any airborne platform, regardless of size.â€

Today, Goodson said, the sensor suite is almost as powerful as that of many advanced electronic intelligence (ELINT) gathering aircraft, for signal identification capability and pinpointing subjects with precision.

“The nontraditional ISR idea grew from the fact that the F/A-22 sensor suite is so powerful,†said Ray Goodson, senior manager of the Integrated Warfare Development Center (IWDC) at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics’ Fort Worth, Tex., facility, in an undated release on the Web site of the company, the prime contractor for both planes.

“The question became: Why don’t we use it to augment some of the ELINT collection required deep within high-threat or ‘denied-access areas,’ seeking out those elusive signals.â€

The U.S. military’s signals-gathering aircraft include the U-2, E-8 Joint STARS, E-3 AWACS, RC-135 Rivet Joint and EP-3E Aries. But the most famous was likely the SR-71 Blackbird, the exotic 2,000-mile-an-hour spy plane that was retired in 1997. While the other aircraft generally collect their data at some distance from the combat zone, the SR-71 was sent streaking directly over North Vietnam, sucking up electromagnetic emissions during a three-minute transit of the narrow country.

These Blackbird missions could become a template for the stealthy, supercruising F/A-22. Analysts say small fleets of Raptors or JSFs could be sent deep into enemy territory and, because of their stealthiness, sop up a great deal of intelligence without being noticed.

During, or more likely, after the overflight, selected information could be downloaded to ground troops and commanders.

Why the Secret?

Why hasn’t the Air Force talked about this before? They’ve apparently been happy to keep some of the Raptor’s capabilities quiet. Thompson said senior U.S. Air Force officials had told him that 60 percent of the F/A-22’s key warfighting features are too secret to discuss.

Another hidden capability is the AESA radar’s ability to blind enemy sensors with blasts of electromagnetic energy.

But the Raptor is under fire for its high price tag — about a quarter-billion dollars with development costs, perhaps half that for flyaway costs — and its proposed production run has been slashed from about 750 to around 180 planes. Under the circumstances, the plane’s true ISR capability has become more of a selling point.

The embedded-antenna technology may be further developed for the next generation of unmanned aircraft. Lately, the Air Force has started to look to unmanned aircraft such as the Predator or Global Hawk for such ISR work.

Richard Aboulafia, Teal vice president of analysis, wrote in a February report, “The Last Great Decade,†about the fighter market that the F-35 technology could point the way for future unmanned combat aerial vehicles.
PJ-10 BrahMos said:
2. What happens to its stealth uniqueness when it goes over a certain speed, mach 1.8:)
At high speeds, the thermal signature will go up due to friction. But detecting a Raptor at high altitude with IR will not be easy. The RCS will not be affected unless the coatings are burned off.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
There is talk of developing a F-15E version of the F-22, the FB-22
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/fb-22.htm
http://www.air-attack.com/page.php?pid=26
However " the Air Force has indicated that it will not order the design"

But it shows the way future aircraft will look, the 6th generation fighter is going to be something out of sci fi, unless it is decided that current threats at the time do not warrant the expense, and the US has to make do with F-22 C/D's then E/F's.
One difference between US 5th generation A/C and China's, the US develops it's own, China gets a lot of their tech from offshore, Russia, Israel, spies etc. After all, in the west, with their freedoms, a chinese worker won't be given a second look, in China a european worker would have half of China's intel spooks trailing him lol. But it does mean that a slowdown in developments in those countries directly effect China's efforts.
I am still amazed some put the F-22 as less than 5th generation, I was looking to see if the poster was chinese, pakistani or indian, no offence intended, but some are inclined to place their respective tech as worldbeating.
 

highsea

New Member
SABRE said:
...Chinese 5th gen AC is known as J-XX at the moment but there is huge speculation that it is the same technology as MiG-1.44. Only its Wind Tunnel Design looks different, but nothing could be said till we see the 1st prototype.
Sabre, I'm not sure what wind tunnel pic you saw, but if it was the same one that was making the rounds a couple months ago, it was just a blurred out, shopped copy of one of the SHARC test pics off the Dryden website. Look at the wing and tails- if it's the YF-23 diamond wing and canted fins, you know it's phony. ;)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I can't believe people still think any other Country will develop a more capable aircraft than the F-22 in the next 20 odd years. There are Countries (India with LCA and China/Pakistan with it's FC-1 for instance) that are designing aircraft that are barely as capable as current in-service F-16/F-18 type aircraft, yet argue that the F-22 won't be the most capable air combat aircraft ever made, or that the F-22 isn't "5th Generation"... The entire aircraft is revolutionary. Here are some reasons;

1. Supercruise. It is the ONLY fighter in production that has demonstrated sustained "supercruise" at Mach 1.5+. The Eurofighter has demonstrated (once that I know of) something like a "supercruise", but at nowhere near the speed of the F-22. No other production aircraft has ever demonstrated such a capability AFAIK.

2. It is the first fighter aircraft that has been designed and produced with high level stealth performance AND high level kinematic performance, ie: other stealth aircraft are subsonic ONLY. (US is the only Country operating TRUE Stealth aircraft). No other fighter aircraft has been designed with high level stealth performance. The F-35 is probably the 2nd most stealthy fighter and has only been designed with perhaps a "mid-level" stealth performance...

3. The F-22 is the first aircraft designed from the outset with a "low probability of intercept" AESA radar system. The F-35 is the 2nd. LPI means that the radar will mostly not "actively" broadcast with their radars, they will simply "listen" for everyone else who is forced to...

The F-22 possesses many other qualities, which demonstrate it's potency. No other current or realistically projected fighter will come close.
 

amatsunz

New Member
SABRE said:
USA is the 1st to make the 5th Gen jets. F-22(for A2A missions) & JSF (Multirole). Europeans would be the 2nd with EF-2000, French are the 3rd with Rafale with Russia & China soon to follow.


Normally i wouldnt speak up for the French, But, I think you'll find that they bet the "Europeans" by quite a few years and should be second, not third. Rafel A flew in 1986, Rafel C in 1991, while Eurofighter was in 1994. Oprationally Eurofighter AFAIK isnt operational in a front line squadron and ready to go to war wheras Rafale M is, and indeed was sent on the CDG in 2001 to Afghanistan (Although due to a lack of multirole cap. on these aircraft and lack of fighter opposition wasnt used)
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is from this months C4ISR Journal - a very reputable entity and one who all analysts that I know of subscribe to.


Touted as the world’s next-generation stealthy jet fighters and attack aircraft, the F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will gather battlefield information as well.


The sensor suites on the two planes will turn them into information sponges, promising useful performance as fast-moving intelligence-gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platforms with the datalinks to send real time data to ground troops.

Like the Raptor’s and JSF’s active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, the fighters’ other ISR sensors are incorporated into the plane, the wiring laced throughout their wings and body. This helps keep the aircraft stealthy.

“What the F/A-22 offers that no other fighter aircraft has is a huge amount of processing power linked to an airframe designed for an embedded antenna,†said Loren Thompson, vice president of the Lexington Institute, an Arlington, Va., think tank.

The Raptor combines the ability to pick up electromagnetic emissions across a broad spectrum — from radio waves to infrared light — with a pair of powerful onboard computers with a vast library of signal patterns. This allows the aircraft to collect, process and identify signals in a way no other fighter aircraft can, Thompson said.

“No sensor system is better in aperture, power supply or field of view than the platform carrying it,†he said. The Raptor “will never have the field of view of a satellite and never be able to eavesdrop with the depth of a Rivet Joint.â€
The JSF’s ISR abilities will closely match the Raptor’s, said Jon Waldrop, Lockheed’s international programs director.

Planning for embedded sensors began early in the Raptor’s two-decade gestation. In a 1995 report, “Concurrency and Risk of the F-22 Program,†the Defense Science Board Task Force cited “multiple (15-20) sources of passive surveillance†planned for the Raptor.

“The passive surveillance system includes many stressing performance requirements,†the report said. “Most are beyond anything previously accomplished on any airborne platform, regardless of size.â€

Today, Goodson said, the sensor suite is almost as powerful as that of many advanced electronic intelligence (ELINT) gathering aircraft, for signal identification capability and pinpointing subjects with precision.

“The nontraditional ISR idea grew from the fact that the F/A-22 sensor suite is so powerful,†said Ray Goodson, senior manager of the Integrated Warfare Development Center (IWDC) at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics’ Fort Worth, Tex., facility, in an undated release on the Web site of the company, the prime contractor for both planes.

“The question became: Why don’t we use it to augment some of the ELINT collection required deep within high-threat or ‘denied-access areas,’ seeking out those elusive signals.â€

The U.S. military’s signals-gathering aircraft include the U-2, E-8 Joint STARS, E-3 AWACS, RC-135 Rivet Joint and EP-3E Aries. But the most famous was likely the SR-71 Blackbird, the exotic 2,000-mile-an-hour spy plane that was retired in 1997. While the other aircraft generally collect their data at some distance from the combat zone, the SR-71 was sent streaking directly over North Vietnam, sucking up electromagnetic emissions during a three-minute transit of the narrow country.

These Blackbird missions could become a template for the stealthy, supercruising F/A-22. Analysts say small fleets of Raptors or JSFs could be sent deep into enemy territory and, because of their stealthiness, sop up a great deal of intelligence without being noticed.

During, or more likely, after the overflight, selected information could be downloaded to ground troops and commanders.

Why the Secret?

Why hasn’t the Air Force talked about this before? They’ve apparently been happy to keep some of the Raptor’s capabilities quiet. Thompson said senior U.S. Air Force officials had told him that 60 percent of the F/A-22’s key warfighting features are too secret to discuss.

Another hidden capability is the AESA radar’s ability to blind enemy sensors with blasts of electromagnetic energy.

But the Raptor is under fire for its high price tag — about a quarter-billion dollars with development costs, perhaps half that for flyaway costs — and its proposed production run has been slashed from about 750 to around 180 planes. Under the circumstances, the plane’s true ISR capability has become more of a selling point.

The embedded-antenna technology may be further developed for the next generation of unmanned aircraft. Lately, the Air Force has started to look to unmanned aircraft such as the Predator or Global Hawk for such ISR work.

Richard Aboulafia, Teal vice president of analysis, wrote in a February report, “The Last Great Decade,†about the fighter market that the F-35 technology could point the way for future unmanned combat aerial vehicles.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
This is an interesting development. The RAAF is looking at not acquiring a specialised manned tactical reconnaissance capability when the R/F-111 is retired, as they believe the next generation targeting pods (ATFLIR, Sniper XR, Litening AT) are sufficient capable to turn "every" fighter into an ISR platform. (Or at least ever fighter that has a targetting pod, which will be 1 in 2 for the RAAF F/A-18A's).

These pods (and probably others) feature around a 70 mile standoff capability and are being fitted with "broadband" datalinks (the Litening AT already possesses this capability) in order to download the gained data in "virtual real time". The ATFLIR has most recently added a Ku band datalink for "ADSL" type download speeds.

The benefits of this are less cost (the pods are being acquired anyway) with no need to purchase a dedicated recce pod and (hopefully) higher quality data provided in a much more timely fashion.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but the RAAF is strongly pursuing this...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
amatsunz said:
Oprationally Eurofighter AFAIK isnt operational in a front line squadron and ready to go to war wheras Rafale M is, and indeed was sent on the CDG in 2001 to Afghanistan (Although due to a lack of multirole cap. on these aircraft and lack of fighter opposition wasnt used)
Rafales were being used in Operation Herakles, but I was under the impression that they M's are still not fully wired for all warloads. They impressed the americans with their workload and availability rates though. As such the USN had F/A-18's riding shotgun while they ran strike missions.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
This is an interesting development.
Yep, for those who read the document closely, there are some very clear triggers for doctrine and platform change about to happen. ;)
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
amatsunz said:
Normally i wouldnt speak up for the French, But, I think you'll find that they bet the "Europeans" by quite a few years and should be second, not third. Rafel A flew in 1986, Rafel C in 1991, while Eurofighter was in 1994. Oprationally Eurofighter AFAIK isnt operational in a front line squadron and ready to go to war wheras Rafale M is, and indeed was sent on the CDG in 2001 to Afghanistan (Although due to a lack of multirole cap. on these aircraft and lack of fighter opposition wasnt used)
Sorry...I did make a mistake there, I realized but dint bother to correct it..lezziness. Actualy the sequance I made is based on my personal ranking & probably thats why I also wrote the time ranking on the basis of performance aswell.

I usualy rank 5th Gen ACs as:

1. F-22 Raptor
2. EF-2000 Typhoon
3. Rafale
4. JSF-35
5. F-16 Block 60 E/F
6. JAS-39 Gripen
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
highsea said:
Sabre, I'm not sure what wind tunnel pic you saw, but if it was the same one that was making the rounds a couple months ago, it was just a blurred out, shopped copy of one of the SHARC test pics off the Dryden website. Look at the wing and tails- if it's the YF-23 diamond wing and canted fins, you know it's phony. ;)
I ment the earlier one...hopefuly u have seen it. Yeah it looks more like YF-23 but th wings are more sort of Delta.
 
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