What is a 4th generation fighter aircraft?

[rattmuff]

What is a 4th generation fighter aircraft and what are the requirements for a fighter too be designated 4th generation fighter aircraft?
I have tried to solve this for some time and I've got almost nothing! Therefor I decided to bring the subject to DT-forum. Of the little facts I have, a 4th generation fighter is depending on several really powerful computers and a long range multi-mode radar. Any thoughts on this?



One question (little patriotic here).
Is Gripen still the only 4th generation fighter in service?

 

[typhoons rule]

no theres a few ill list them all theres acteuly 5th generations aswell

Fc1 fierce dragon
Jh-7 flying leopard
Dassault Mirage 2000
HAL Tejas
IAI Kfir
Mitsubishi F-2
JF-17 Thunder
AIDC F-CK Indigenous Defence Fighter
Mikoyan MiG-29
Mikoyan MiG-31
Sukhoi Su-27
Yakovlev Yak-38
Sweden
Saab Viggen
Panavia Tornado
McDonnell Douglas/BAE Harrier II
Grumman F-14 Tomcat
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
Northrop YF-17 Cobra
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet
Northrop F-20 Tigershark
Chengdu J-10
Dassault Rafale
Sukhoi Su-30 MKI
IAI Lavi
Mikoyan MiG-35
Sukhoi Su-30/-33/-34/-35/-37
Yakovlev Yak-41
Saab Gripen
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
F-15E Strike Eagle
i think thats all and the chengdu j10 down to the f15e could be counted as what they call 4.5 generation and the 5ths so far are the

Eurofighter Typhoon
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Sukhoi Su-47 (Russia and India)
Shenyang J-XX
Dassault Neuron
EADS Barracuda
Medium Combat Aircraft
KFX
Advanced Defense Fighter
Mikoyan Project 1.44
Sukhoi PAK FA
F-22 Raptor
YF-23 Black Widow II
Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems
and i dont think theres aneymore known about

 

[rattmuff]

If SAAB 37 Viggen counts as a 4th gen fighter; then Gripen must be a 6th gen fighter and F-35 JSF a 7th gen fighter. The list don't make any sense to me.

 

[typhoons rule]

If SAAB 37 Viggen counts as a 4th gen fighter; then Gripen must be a 6th gen fighter and F-35 JSF a 7th gen fighter. The list don't make any sense to me.

well i think it works like this
3rd generation (1960-1970)
where more on manouvorability thasn speed and there where becoming like mature in jet fighter making they and they realised that combat would end up with use of canons so they made them more manouvarable ( remember the missiles werent that great at this time)

Fourth generation (1970-1990)
they became more multirole ie the tornado has tons of functions and now they started using flyby wire relaxed stability so they where becoming more computerized you could say then the 4.5 generation (1990-2000) was just like modifying 4th gen fighter ie f18e super hornet f15e strike eagle and they started like tweaking the main design to give it less of a radar signiure and they used super computers so they where realy advanced aswell as full glass cockpits and 5th gen 2000 onwards use stuff like thrust vectoring stealth or very rediced signiture supercruise etc

 

[typhoons rule]

dont know why i mentioned 3rd gen

 

[DarthAmerica]

If SAAB 37 Viggen counts as a 4th gen fighter; then Gripen must be a 6th gen fighter and F-35 JSF a 7th gen fighter. The list don't make any sense to me.

Of course it doesnt. 99.9% of folks dont have the slightest idea of what generational designation means. More often than not generations are confused with technologies/capabilities. I'll give you a very simplified, logical and easily understood summary.

An aircraft manufacturer makes platform A to perform a certain task. At some point Platform A nears or becomes obsolete. Lessons learned from Platform A and new operational requirements are then incorporated into the design of Platform B which will at a minimum assume Platform A's role. Platform B is now the second generation successor to Platform A. Understand?

Thus it is not possible to have a such thing as a x.5 generation platform since generational designations are integer values. Think of your own family history. Are you the x.5 generation follow on to your parents? Of course not. Rather you are the next whole number generation of your family and your children will be the incremented next whole number generation. x.5 generation is a bastardized marketing terminology used to sell platforms that are in fact a generation behind other platforms but possess similar characteristics. This plays on the human psycology that bigger numbers = better when in fact generations have nothing to do with capability.

The history of AIRCRAFT GENERATIONS originated with the introduction of the first modern combat jets and has incremented accordingly. While not a rule, its interesting to note that the average time a combat jet maintains a dominant position is about 10 to 15 years or an average of 12.5 years before an advesarys counter developments require serious efforts toward a successor platform to maintain domnance or parity. Jets first appeared over battle fields approximately 60 years ago and thus the more established combat jet aircraft producing nations are at the operational deployment of their 5th generation of combat jets and in the clandestine deployment or R&D phase of 6th and 7th generations of combat aircraft.


As a factual reference point. The only operationally deployed 5th generation fighter jets are the F-22 and F/A-18E soon to be followed by the F-35. Russia will probably field a 5th Generation successor to the SU-27/Mig-29 series sometime in the next decade.

 

[typhoons rule]

yea and my list is right theres no way the f18e is 5th generation does it have supercruise? no stealth? no (reduced radar signiture but not to the extent of the typhoon or f22a) thrust vectoring? no they are the desirable specs for a 5th gen
and the f18e doesnt have them it is advanced with full glass cockpit but its basicly based on a f18 and is upgraded with a few tweaks but ur right on what is meant by a generation of planes you just dont know what the tasks are of each generation are but hes got the concept right

 

[rattmuff]

I just realised how it works now. Well, I know now how the SwAF generation changes works. I feel nice so I provide you with some info of the fighter aircrafts. Happy reading!

First generation fighter:
SAAB 29 Tunnan (the flying barrel). First jet fighter in the world with a arrow shape(don't know the english term). Broke several world records, speed.
Operational: 1951-1976

Second generation fighter:
SAAB 35 Draken. The first fighter with delta wings, reached mach 2,0 and in her first flight Draken reached mach 1,0 while climbing, afterburner was off. This one could supercruise! And it had a datalink system.
Operational: 1960-1999

Third generation fighter:
SAAB 37 Viggen. The first fighter with delta-canards configuration. Supercruise ability. Thanks to the US it wasn't exported. Reason? To powerful engine. Had a better datalink than Draken.
Operational: 1979-2005(2007)

Fourth generation fighter:
SAAB 39 Gripen. First in the world with true multi-role and swing-role. Has the most advanced datalink in the world. Very low operational cost. No supercruise ability.
Operational: 1992-


Source: Svenskt militärflyg. (Stridflygplan. Helikoptrar. Robotar. Flygmotorer.) 2005.

Which means I got this from a book. The books name in english is Swedish military aviation. (Fighter aircrafts. Helicopters. Robots. Fighter engines.) 2005. They also present the secret stuff about the fighters, that's probibly why some things makes you feel confused or get a feeling that this is all lies, but that is the point with top secret stuff. There is only a swedish version, I just translated the title!

 

[swerve]

As a factual reference point. The only operationally deployed 5th generation fighter jets are the F-22 and F/A-18E soon to be followed by the F-35. Russia will probably field a 5th Generation successor to the SU-27/Mig-29 series sometime in the next decade.

What makes the operationally deployed F-18E 5th generation?

 

[rattmuff]

BTW, according to a Hungarian Gripen pilot the MIG-29 is a third gen fighter.

 

[typhoons rule]

the f18 is not 5th gen it doesnt have anything thwe other 5th gen have exept supercomputers and full glas cockpit

 

[typhoons rule]

if in doubt look on wikipedia

 

[RubiconNZ]

Well...

Personally I would consider the Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon the 4.5 Gens, with the obvious 5th gens. The early F16 ie A/B would of been third gen while the latter models would be 4th. Slightly educated SWAG but it sounds logical at the time.:crazy

 

[typhoons rule]

yea but i think the typhoons 5th gen it is rather stealthy and has got thrust vectoring and all the other cool gismos the 5th gens have jsut aboutyea i think ur right about thef16 the block 50 is it is realy neat

 

[rattmuff]

Ok. Will Gripen be a 5th gen fighter when the current investment is done?
The swedish defence material administration has just rescently sent a order to Industrial Group JAS worth 1 billion SEK (140 million USD/110 million EUR).
They want a upgrade of the aircrafts abilities.
The money will be put to develop the following abilities: ground targeting, night, interception, close combat, self defence. This also means that IG JAS has to develope these abilities including maintainance, cargo, cockpit and support systems.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRelations/Pressreleases/Pressrelease.htm?PressreleaseId=134453
I also used a swedish source.
It still wont have thrust vectoring after the upgrade.

 

[DarthAmerica]

What makes the operationally deployed F-18E 5th generation?

Its the 5th Generation Successor to the 4th Generation F-14 and F/A-18A-C is why. See the link below.

"The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a combat-proven, 5th generation strike fighter with built-in versatility. The Super Hornet's suite of integrated and networked systems provides enhanced interoperability, total force support for the combatant commander and for the troops on the ground."

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/index.htm

I dont want to waste time arguing this issue based on peoples opinions which vary with the 4 winds so I'll ask that anyone wishing to disqualify the F/A-18E as 5th Gen which I'm sure everyone agree is replacing the 4th Gen F-14 and F/A-18C do so with some facts.

Apparently some did not see where I made it clear that capabilities such as supercruise, stealth ect. have nothing to do with generations.

 

[Magoo]

Its the 5th Generation Successor to the 4th Generation F-14 and F/A-18A-C is why. See the link below.

"The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a combat-proven, 5th generation strike fighter with built-in versatility. The Super Hornet's suite of integrated and networked systems provides enhanced interoperability, total force support for the combatant commander and for the troops on the ground."

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/index.htm

I dont want to waste time arguing this issue based on peoples opinions which vary with the 4 winds so I'll ask that anyone wishing to disqualify the F/A-18E as 5th Gen which I'm sure everyone agree is replacing the 4th Gen F-14 and F/A-18C do so with some facts.

Apparently some did not see where I made it clear that capabilities such as supercruise, stealth ect. have nothing to do with generations.

I believe it's more to do with avionics, sensors, weapons, and communications integration (or fusion as the Europeans like to call it), rather than just being based on outright airframe performance.

I personally would place aircraft like the Super Hornet, Eurofighter and Ralafe in a 4.5 gen category of their own, with only F-22 and F-35 in the 5th gen category.

For me, and I emphasise, FOR ME, the generations break down thus...

* 1st gen: Me-262, Meteor, Vampire, P-80, Sabre, MiG-15/17, Hunter, Mystere etc

* 2nd gen: F-100, MiG-19, Mystere II etc (Trans/Supersonic, 1st gen AAMs, swept wings)

* 3rd gen: F-101, F-104, F-4, F-8, Lightning, Mirage III, MiG-21, MiG-23/27, F-105, Draken etc (More reliable radars, Supersonic, radar guided AAMs, 1st gen PGMs)

* 4th gen: F-14, F-15A-E, F-16A-D, F/A-18A-D, Tornado IDS/ADV, MiG-29, Su-27/30, Viggen, Gripen-A etc (ultra-manouverability, supersonic, better PGMs, much better radars, 1st gen datalinks, multi-role)

* 4.5 gen: F/A-18E/F, Rafale, Typhoon, F-15SG, F-16E/F, Su-30MKI/M/35/37, Gripen-C etc (4th gen airframes, some with some LO enhancements, AESA, 2-way datalinks, all aspect AAMs and PGMs, limited supercruise)

* 5th gen: F-22, F-35 (low observable airframes, internal weapons, integrated avionics/sensor fusion, high performance engines etc)

Obviously, not all aicraft I've mentioned have every capability I've used to qualify each generation, e.g. I wouldn't call a Tornado ADV ultra-manouevrable. In other areas, there are probably aircraft that cross over between one category and the next, e.g. F-16 Block 50, F-15K, Gripen-A, even F-4E in later upgrades, and there's probably places where you could have more half generations.

Magoo

Oh, and please for once, let's try to do this without any arguments. Somewhere in the back of my memories I can hear my Mum saying, "Play nice kids, otherwise you'll have an eye out!"

 

[rjmaz1]

Magoo that list is spot on in my opinion.

Also for the people that dont think there should be a 4.5 generation i think the class name is justified. Its not as if

If a a fighter has half the features of a 5th generation and half the features of a 4th generation, then it has to be regarded superior than a normal 4th generation. Datalinks, AESA and a reduced radar cross section are usual additions.

 

[Magoo]

SAAB 39 Gripen. First in the world with true multi-role and swing-role.

As much as I like the Gripen, I probably know a few thousand F/A-18, F-15E and Mirage 2000 pilots who might dispute it was the "first true multi-role and swing fighter"!

Magoo

 

[Magoo]

yea but i think the typhoons 5th gen it is rather stealthy and has got thrust vectoring and all the other cool gismos the 5th gens have jsut ...

Typhoon has thrust vectoring??? I'd double check the source that gave you that information.

Magoo