What can passive sonar actually detect?

MikeWhiskyTango

New Member
I cant seem to locate enough information regarding sonar. I need to know whether a PASSIVE sonar will detect only ACTIVE sonar pings, or can a passive array also detect other 'signatures' ie; engine noise, vibrations, in fact anything at all!

And also, at what 'average' range can these 'signatures' be detected? (I am at least aware that this last question is subject to sea temperatures and depth etc, but just a basic idea regarding the range would be good).

Thank you for any answers.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I cant seem to locate enough information regarding sonar. I need to know whether a PASSIVE sonar will detect only ACTIVE sonar pings, or can a passive array also detect other 'signatures' ie; engine noise, vibrations, in fact anything at all!
depending on whose technology suite - yes


And also, at what 'average' range can these 'signatures' be detected? (I am at least aware that this last question is subject to sea temperatures and depth etc, but just a basic idea regarding the range would be good).

Thank you for any answers.
I've got recordings of sounding charges picked up at 2,000km

there's no simple answer to any of this, and no one from the sub community in here is likely to give more detail
 

agc33e

Banned Member
I am an expert snorkling in the beach, and i can tell you that the spanish navy subs which are old, but i dont know exactly which sonar suite they have, but the sonarist says it is very easy to distinguish betwenn types of engines even, distinguishing between big ships and smaller ones, and even the sound of the dolphins and other animals, when the make normal noise, like burbing with the dogs.

Cheers.
 

Kilo 2-3

New Member
Oh well... the answers flooded in on other sites so it cant be overly 'top secret'.
...how many of the answers agreed with one another?

GF is right, sonar technology is a very, very well-protected secret, one regular civilians (myself included) are not and should not be privy to. Any "answers" you get on the Internet are likely to come from an uniformed and untrustworthy source.
 

Juramentado

New Member
And also, at what 'average' range can these 'signatures' be detected? (I am at least aware that this last question is subject to sea temperatures and depth etc, but just a basic idea regarding the range would be good).
If you want the nuts and bolts of how active and passive sonar works, use your preferred search engine and try terms like "active passive sonar equation" and work your way through the results. Warning, unless you enjoy math and wrapping your head around the results, this approach requires a drink - perhaps a few (okay, any excuse is a good excuse to drink - happy now? :D). I was never good at numbers so your mileage may vary.

The short answer - you cannot generate a "table" of detection ranges without dialing in many, many other factors. A fixed table doesn't exist. Not to mention that said accuracy of those ranges would be dependent on the accuracy of the other variables. To get accurate variables, you need access to classified information. If you use publicly available information, you can get an average, but whose information will you use? Is it available in one spot? Do the sets of data correspond to the equation set you are using, or will you need to estimate if you're missing some parts? The rest of it is physics. Take that for what you will. If someone is pointing you to a table, be sure to at least understand how they got to that information and what are the underlying aspects. Did they dial in at least all the major influential factors? What is their basis for expressing the ratings of one platform's abilities or characteristics versus another?

To be honest, if what you're looking for is a good grasp of how passive sonar works from a tactical perspective (i.e., what is your figure of merit for a typical modern diesel electric sub given a particular set of factors), then work your way through this Wiki:

The Harpoon 3 Sonar Model - AGSI

If you're not familiar with Harpoon, it's the tactics game Larry Bond invented (the co-author of the seminal Red Storm Rising novel along wiith Tom Clancy) as a young naval officer who was interested in improving the official NAVTAG tactical tool. Even using Harpoon's sonar model, you're still only using a database that characterizes certain aspects of specific platforms to a particular degree of accuracy (meaning best guess or unclassified). Is there a more accurate database out there with real-world values? Sure. Will you get access to it? Probably not. Harpoon 3's ProSim version is likely still a best guess because it's marketed to overseas clients.

Is either approach good enough to tell you how passive sonar detection works, at least at a fundamental level? Absolutely. Personally, I would use the Harpoon one because if you're like a lot of folks on this forum, part of your interest is to understand how the underlying technology applies to naval military science. In that aspect, the pure numbers approach I suggested at the beginning gets you through the nuts & bolts of how sonar works, but it's pretty damn dry. :eek:

Final suggestion: the "flood of answers" you got on the other sites? Not worth a plugged nickel. Not even the ones I provided. You want the real skinny? Get a security clearance and enlist or become a defense contractor. :cool:
 
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MikeWhiskyTango

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Whoopee

I'm happy for the other sites.

you have noticed that the 3 or 4 (real) submariners in here have kept their counsel?
Yeeaaah okaaay you've made your point several times now. It was a simple question on a forum not a national security issue. You've already told me now, several times, that the 'real submariners' will not talk, and hinted that you and others know lots and lots of 'secrets' and that you will not be disclosing all these very important 'secrets', well basically good for you and... ummm so what!!?? In your own elegant words of importance 'whoopee'.

Otherwise, to all others thanks for the responses. Every piece of information has been useful.
The reason for my initial question is that I've started designing a tactical game and need some sort of 'basic idea' as to ranges and effects without trawling through all the mathematical formula that I seem to find on the subject. Apart from that your responses have been helpful in this regard. Thank you again.
As to the Harpoon game and others, I am aware of them but I always like to start a design sequence without referring to other games (not until later at least). This ensures my project retains its own style of simulation without overmuch influence, and ensures it captures the 'feel' of my own original idea, ie levels of playability and realism etc.
Also, like I said in the initial question, a 'basic' idea was all I was after, not specifics, not secrets, not brand names, the intention was not to pick the secret statistics out of the minds of the important sub mariners on this site but to obtain merely a 'basic idea'. I am aware simplicity is not synonymous with sonar technology, but that essentially applies to anything, and in my experience everything can be quantitatively boiled down into a model.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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Thanks Juramentado for that great harpoon 3 link. Another site gave me an excellent link to WW2 sonar detection ranges which helps me build an overall picture and to pick out whats important for my 'playing field' so to speak. (Its my first foray into naval warfare simulations in 30 years since I first designed a naval wargame for the Napoleonic period. And quite honestly, I am enjoying the experience of learning something that has always interested me but have never got around to researching comprehensively I love the digging up and exploration of hard to find stats and then analysing and moulding them into a workable game system).
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Oh well... the answers flooded in on other sites so it cant be overly 'top secret'.
Ask yourself this, what's more likely - that classified information (and military sonar capability IS classified, no matter what websites would have you believe) would be shared freely on the internet by those in the know, or that your questions are being answered by misinformed enthusiasts who really aren't qualified to do so?

I don't mean this to sound harsh, and I understand you're only after ballpark figures and so on. But don't give those who claim to have accurate figures on the capabilities of military technology too much credit - if people are giving you specifics, they're probably not legit. There are a few examples of people online providing what to the average person looks like "good data" - but are in fact total frauds. Air Power Australia is one such example.

Anyway, good luck with your game, but do be careful and maybe base your approximations more on effective game balance than real world figures. But then I don't know, I'm not a game designer.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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I have often been told that nothing on the net is trustworthy. Well... in reality the information on the net (although subject to huge numbers of amateurs) is no different from books. They all vary in data, level of research and sources and it requires careful analysis to identify common patterns and determine what is crud and what isn't. That's the nature (and fun) of research. In fact I once posed a 'loaded' query regarding modern tank sights and laying a mortar on several net sites and was shocked to find the respondents all knew the answer, there were perhaps overly-enthusiastic responses, sure, but none of them had deliberately invented any data or wanted to steer me the wrong way. You might find that sort of behaviour on You Tube but on the subject specific sites (including this site) they are, and have been, usually really good. I am able to catch a large amount of information and then sift through it to determine whats worthwhile and what isn't. All good!!
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have often been told that nothing on the net is trustworthy. Well... in reality the information on the net (although subject to huge numbers of amateurs) is no different from books. They all vary in data, level of research and sources and it requires careful analysis to identify common patterns and determine what is crud and what isn't. That's the nature (and fun) of research. In fact I once posed a 'loaded' query regarding modern tank sights and laying a mortar on several net sites and was shocked to find the respondents all knew the answer, there were perhaps overly-enthusiastic responses, sure, but none of them had deliberately invented any data or wanted to steer me the wrong way. You might find that sort of behaviour on You Tube but on the subject specific sites (including this site) they are, and have been, usually really good. I am able to catch a large amount of information and then sift through it to determine whats worthwhile and what isn't. All good!!
I'm not saying it's more or less trustworthy than what you'd find in books - I'm saying if the information isn't cleared for the public domain, you won't find accurate numbers on it anywhere. Some bits and pieces might slip through the cracks from time to time, but these exceptions would be extremely difficult to identify given the lack of context with which they could be examined. And this is very relevant to your first question, because it's my understanding that sonar performance is something no one in the know is going to discuss. But anyway you seem to understand that, just wanted to caution you against being taken for a ride. :)

PS while specialist sites like this one are much better than average for information, there's still a LOT of speculation that gets thrown around. You might already know, but users here with blue handles are defence industry professionals so it's always good to hear their thoughts - and users with red or maroon handles are moderators and they too often (such as gf0012-aust who posted above) have relevant defence industry experience. Might help you with your information sifting.
 

valice

New Member
If you are looking at building a simulation software to simulate detection ranges, you can do so by getting a good book on underwater sound. The most basic book to start with is "Principle of Underwater Sound" by Urick.

All principles of sonar equations and the factors affecting detection ranges can be found there.

There are also alot of open literature from JASA on the various models affecting sound propagation in water. You will need to note that these models are strictly limited to the areas where the data is collected. The sea and oceans are not as homogeneous in nature compared to air propagation.

Another reason why no one table is available is because a sonar system that has one detection range in one sea could have a 3dB degradation (equating to a drop in 50%of the range) in performance in another.

Hope it helps to direct you to where to find the necessary information to do what you need.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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Thanks Bonza for the sitrep. Ive been directed to several sites now and am accumulating quite alot of info. I can now determine the 'size of the playing field' in regards to passive sonar. Accuracy aside, it has now given me a basic place to start the project, which is all I wanted. Of course, like all my other sims more data that becomes apparent over the future will allow me to alter the 'pond', perhaps telescoping into a more intensive and realistic 'lake', who knows.
In fact, the sub game was only a learning aid for myself. I've been designing a geostrategic game and it was the question of 'whether to include or exclude hunter-killer subs at the global strategic level' that led me to reading copious amounts of conflicting information on the net and other sources regarding their importance or lack of, that I decided I would have to find out all about submarine warfare from the ground up, which of course led me to starting a simple game design to ensure I understood all of it, and then, that in turn led me to what I initially discerned to be the most crucial part of ASW, the passive sonar, and hence my question.
Thanks for all the feedback.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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Another reason why no one table is available is because a sonar system that has one detection range in one sea could have a 3dB degradation (equating to a drop in 50%of the range) in performance in another.
Thankyou for the input, I'll look for that book. Another one for the library.
The 3dB degradation = 50% reduction is amazing.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
knock yourself out and contact them to see what they will release into the public domain.


Acoustic Signature Classification Software
For Sonar Processing applications


Array's Acoustic Signature Classification Software (ASCS) is a proven software designed to support sonar operators in quickly and effectively classifying a target by means of incremental searches on the acoustic signature database. The ASCS is derived from the HYDAB classification software that has been in use in the Royal Swedish Navy.

The operator can search the database using acoustic signature information obtained from analysis of the contact to compare the received signals with the signatures in the database. A list of closest matches will be produced and presented to allow the operator to further refine the search until a positive identification is made.

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Key Benefits

. Proven technology with the ability to perform rapid incremental searching of LOFAR, DEMON, transient, intercept and physical ship data
. Saves the operator critical time in quickly classifying unknown targets
. Easily incorporates and stores new acoustic and other salient target related information at sea or in port
. Operates on a standalone laptop or can be included as an integral part of the sonar processing system

More on Array's ASCS capabilities
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Canada M3J 3H7
Phone: +1 416 736 0900
Fax: +1 416 736 4715
E-mail: [email protected]
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yeeaaah okaaay you've made your point several times now. It was a simple question on a forum not a national security issue. You've already told me now, several times, that the 'real submariners' will not talk, and hinted that you and others know lots and lots of 'secrets' and that you will not be disclosing all these very important 'secrets', well basically good for you and... ummm so what!!?? In your own elegant words of importance 'whoopee'.
feel free to point out where I have ever said that I have claim to "secrets" etc..

again, I will state what is self evident.

the submarine and special forces communities are the most anal of all - they do not talk about actual capability and will talk about generalities. its basic common sense, to assume that they might release rated or sensitive material is optimistic. to whit, any commentary on sub performance and operations is regarded as privileged - even if others might regard some tracts as obvious.

whoopee indeed for the other sites. I'm stating the obvious.

you don't seem to appreciate the fact that from a submariners perspective, any factual response is regarded as sensitive.

if others on other sites want to blab about actual capability then I have a serious doubt as to their credentials. Its just not done. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant to the debate. I am stating something which is a fundamental truth.

there are any number of games sims about which give rough orders of magnitude, so I'm not sure what your intent is beyond wanting to extract material data - and again, you won't get it

I gave you the example of noise propagation with the sounding charge for a reason. under any given condition it will amplify and can get picked up literally thousands of k's away.

detection is somewhat of a black art as the variables are exponential.

if you don't like what I say then fine - focus on the actual message - not on whether you think I'm a wanker.
 

valice

New Member
detection is somewhat of a black art as the variables are exponential.
To be exact, detection is usually the simplest of a DLC chain...
The real black art lies in the localisation and classification. You can detect, but it could be a false alarm. How do you discriminate the real from the false is the key.

But for TS application, you seriously don't have to go so deep. Just use simple sonar equations. Else your computation load will be very significant.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To be exact, detection is usually the simplest of a DLC chain...
The real black art lies in the localisation and classification. You can detect, but it could be a false alarm. How do you discriminate the real from the false is the key.
I'm including the whole process as detection - ie to solution.


But for TS application, you seriously don't have to go so deep. Just use simple sonar equations. Else your computation load will be very significant.
but thats the issue, modern systems are crunch intensive - esp with newer arrays which are far more sophisticated that even 4 years ago.

track and target management in different water mediums alone can be significantly different - the swedes discovered that when trying to get collins and archer to "work" in pacific waters.

if you look as ASW now it is a degraded skill - everyone went off the ball after the collapse of the USSR. We're only really getting back into the game - and that's using very very different technologies than even fielded 4-6 years ago.

the sub has a decided advantage in most opposing scenarios as very few navies have real operational skin in the game.

re computational load - track and target management in ASW is 10-20 times more intensive now than in recent years. digital processing has made a quantum difference, but we still need to separate crap from retrievals.
 

valice

New Member
if you look as ASW now it is a degraded skill - everyone went off the ball after the collapse of the USSR. We're only really getting back into the game - and that's using very very different technologies than even fielded 4-6 years ago.
I agree. It is kinda sad that there are so much more technological development in radar technologies, missiles, EW. But if we look at underwater technology development, it is sad.

Hopefully with the Korean incident, which in my opinion points to a torpedo attack more than anything, there will be more interest to ASW and anti-torpedo protection.
 
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