Vietnam's Armed Forces DiscussionThread

[Crunchy]

I start this thread to discuss about Vietnam's Armed Forces. Feel free to post.


- only discusions/news/opinions on the recent developments/ops/plans/arms deals by the Vietnamese Armed Forces

- comments on historical events, only when it's directly connected to recent developments like hardware currently in service.

- no VC vs.VNCH bulls...

- no political/historical discusions about the Vietnam/American/Sino-Vietnamese/Vietnamese-Cambodian Wars/the lost decade 1975-86/Doi Moi politics (see 2nd line)

- Want to critize the current goverment of Vietnam?
Than look for another forum. You are on a defense related forum. Read the forum rules!

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[Crunchy]

UAE's Mirage 200-9

Well starting point for this post were my comments about the UAE's retirement of their Mirage 2000-9 and Vietnam as a potential buyer of those Mirage 2000-9.
Member Rock45 has asked me some questions I would like to answer:

your still on China's border.

->Vietnam has been on China's border for over 2000 years.
Their relationship is like: David vs. Goliath or big brother vs. lil' brother.......or you vs. your wife/husband

Both countries share alot of cultural & socio-economic similarities (in the past & today), but due historical Chinese dominance/rule and Vietnamese determinated will for independence there is still "a distance" between the two people.
Most visible similarity between Vietnam & China is that both are still Communist countries.

Many people in the West are fooled by this fact. Especially the hardliners in the Overseas Vietnamese community are thinking that Vietnam/Communist Party of Vietnam "is just a tool of the PRC".

Officially the CPV is a harmonic monolithic bloc, but truth is: they have never been. The only issue, which unites all party members/Viets is the independence/development of Vietnam.
CPV's foreign policy: There is a pro-China, pro-Russia, pro-US, pro...insert your country's name-faction. But the neutralist faction are currently the strongest faction. This has lead to increased popularity for Vietnam allaround the world in the recent years. Visible in the rise of foreign tourists/politcians visiting Vietnam

Vietnam's relationship towards China has relaxed in the recent years. Landmarks on the border has been set. Maritime border in the Gulf of Tonkin has also been cleared. Economy is booming in both Countries and are fuelling eachother.

Doesn't China also claim the entire Spratleys Islands as well and their oil? I'm not saying it's right don't get me wrong but its out there and on the table.

The fundamental problem in the South China Sea is that the current government of China claims nearly the whole SCS. PRC's claim even cuts through "undisputed sovereign waters/Exclusive Economic Zone" of Vietnam/Phillipines/Malaysia/Brunai. PRC's claims are backed by their military strenght like the others.

The former South-Vietnamese navy lost the Paracels in 1974 in a small sea battle and the PLAN occupied the islands. The - at that time pro-China/Soviet - government of North Vietnam supported the occupation and even send an official letter to Peking. Today the Chinese government uses this letter as an official justication for the occupation. The PLAN has already dug in on those islands - no chance for the Vietnamese People's Navy/Naval Infantry to retake them.

The situation on the Spratley Islands is much more favourable from the Vietnamese perspective:
- ~ 2000 Vietnamese marines & civilians are stationed/living on some of those islands
- Vietnamese installations on those islands include: HMGs/ Grenade launchers/ AAA/ Igla MANPAD/ PRGs/recoiless rifles
- currently 15 Su-27/30 multirole + ~ 60 Su-22 strikers can support the Vietnamese forces on those islands
- ~ 16 "Taratul-5" corvettes + 4 "Tatarstan" frigates are under construction/sea trails. (Sure the fundamental design of those ships is lil' bit old but they all new-built with modern materials & latest Russian missiles. The most important factor is that they are built in Vietnam. If the Vietnamese shipping industry - already in the top ten - keeps growing, than we can soon expect destroyers/submarines.)
- Spratley Islands are an international waterway - Any actions by any sides would piss off the International community & disturb world economy.

If Vietnam bought the UAE's Mirage 2000-5/9 teamed with their Flankers it would give a Vietnam's Air Force a powerful combo. I can't see the Mirages going cheap and Vietnam might be able to buy almost 2 Flankers for one Mirage depending the deal and goodies that come with the purchase deal.

You mention Vietnam's human rights violations I know little about current Vietnam is this something that the government is improving on?

VN doesn't get Russian gear for free now. In 2003 Vietnam paid ~ 110millions US$ for 4 - according to many websites - "basic" Su-30 Flankers. The price for all gadgets (thrust vectoring,AEsA radar, EW/ECM suites) would push the price up to 50/70 millions US$ - currently unpayable for VPAF.
I've read on several sites that the Vietnamese Flankers are not even eqipped with BVR-A2A missiles. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) The option for additional 9?/21?/57? Flankers has not been realized.
I prefer to have some older, but fully-equipped Mirage 2k9 (especially with the EW/recon suites) than some Su-30 without any gadgets. So it's maybe cheaper to buy the Mirage than naked Flankers.

Well, we all don't know what happens behind closed doors. Vietnam is currently an exclusive market for Russia/former WP countries. But Vietnam does not want to be dependent completely on Russia.

Isreal's deal to sell mine-protected recon vehicles to VN surprised many.

It would be the government of the UAE selling the Mirages - how can a human rights NGO critize the French government?
On the other hand France would get a backdoor to Vietnam. We all know that France is desperately looking for export markets for its' fighters.

Human rights/Democracy/4 Freedoms - THE pressing factors when it comes to arms deals with emerging/developing countries.

In general it can be said that those things have greatly improved, but VN is far from having Western standards. There are many contradicting incidents.

Just 3 examples:
While thousands of Christians in Saigon could rent a soccer stadium and celebrate Christmas, Christians in remote areas couldn't even celebrate in their homes undisturbed.

The "Flower/Black" Hmongs in the Sa Pa area/Northeastern Vietnam are benefitting from growing tourism & selling their handicraft worldwide. Hmong clans/families, who fought for the US Forces in South Vietnam/Laos, are still being harrassed and persecuted.

Two journalists, who have uncovered some corruption cases in a state-censored newspaper, were sentenced to long prison fines, but they were released several weeks later during the annual general amnesty. (Typical fight between the reformists vs. the conservatives/corrupted. This incident has once again showed the schism inside the CPV)


-> VN's armed forces are currently under control by conservatives of the CPV.

Western arms sales to Vietnam would mean:
not repeating history by not driving the Viets into Russian/Chinese camp
calm down Chinese expansionism with a good eqipped Vietnamese military
training for soldiers/sailors/pilots by Western experts --> personal contacts can bring new ideas to them
training in Western countries --> Officers/Soldiers get to know Western societies during their time there
higher interoperationality between VN's forces and ASEAN's other member states, who mostly use Western gear

Just look how Germany/H&K have sold the MP5 to VN: Expanding Pakistan's license for MP5 production. Pakistan sells the surplus MP5 to VN. Selling over Isreal or India could also be a path to avoid direct critic.

 

[DavidDCM]

Thanks for reminding us, but I think we all know the forum rules

BTW, you were the first to break your own thread rules, as about 70% of your 2nd post are about the political situation and not military related

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I was also surprised to see photos of the RAM 2000 from Israel being in service with the Vietnamese army (I guess it was military police?).
But as with all secretive countries it's very difficult to obtain informations about the current state of the Vietnamese army. From the few photos that leave the country it generally seems that their land forces did not change much since the end of the Vietnam war, that is they still seem to use Soviet era stuff like AK-47, T-54, BMP-1 and BTR-60. If you (or someone else) could clarify the current status of the Vietnamese land forces, I would be happy to read about it.

 

[Feanor]

Vietnam needs a lot more then some fighters. It needs to replace their tank park, and APC park practically entirely. As for the cost of Flankers, keep in mind full Flankers will all the goodies are quite a bit ahead of M2K9s. Depending on who you're looking to defend against the extra capabilities may or may not matter. Keep in mind also that integrating them into what is essentially a 60s era model Soviet army will not be easy.

 

[Crunchy]

I was referring to Rock45's questions and I didn't want to send him a message.
I could have started a thread like: "Western countries selling arms to Vietnam & political discussion in the supplier's nation" but then I thought I might be better to start a general Vietnam thread.
Did I jugde the political situation?
I just list some examples, so that members can judge for themselves.
The rules are not to discuss about Vietnam politics in general - only when they are related directly to defence politics.
My post was about, how Western politcs could deal with arms deal with Vietnam.

*feeling ashamed to have break own rules*

 

[eckherl]

Thanks for reminding us, but I think we all know the forum rules

BTW, you were the first to break your own thread rules, as about 70% of your 2nd post are about the political situation and not military related

------------------

I was also surprised to see photos of the RAM 2000 from Israel being in service with the Vietnamese army (I guess it was military police?).
But as with all secretive countries it's very difficult to obtain informations about the current state of the Vietnamese army. From the few photos that leave the country it generally seems that their land forces did not change much since the end of the Vietnam war, that is they still seem to use Soviet era stuff like AK-47, T-54, BMP-1 and BTR-60. If you (or someone else) could clarify the current status of the Vietnamese land forces, I would be happy to read about it.

Alot of older Chinese armor with Russian T-62s and BMP 2 vehicles also, though the Russian vehicles cannot be confirmed by me.

 

[Crunchy]

Sometimes ago I have read in a blog that Indian commandos have conducted joint exercises with Vietnam's SF/Dac Cong units. But I couldn't found further infos/pics in other forums/other websites. It would be nice if (Indian) members can verify it or not.

 

[DavidDCM]

Alot of older Chinese armor with Russian T-62s and BMP 2 vehicles also, though the Russian vehicles cannot be confirmed by me.

I have a photo from somewhere of a Vietnamese BMP-2 (at least I'm pretty sure it's Vietnamese), but none of the T-62. My tank ID skills are not good enough to see the difference between a Soviet T-54 and a Chinese Type 59, so I just saved them all on my HD as T-54s...

 

[eckherl]

I have a photo from somewhere of a Vietnamese BMP-2 (at least I'm pretty sure it's Vietnamese), but none of the T-62. My tank ID skills are not good enough to see the difference between a Soviet T-54 and a Chinese Type 59, so I just saved them all on my HD as T-54s...

The only BMP series that I can confirm is the BMP 1, this is not saying that they do not have them though, all other tactical vehicles in their inventory are listed as follows:

From China,

Type 59 MBT and Type 62 light tank

From Russia,

T-55, T-62, BMP 1, BRDM2, BTR 60, 2S3 and 2S9.

 

[DavidDCM]

Only have this one. Yellow star in red circle with three digit ID. Isn't that Vietnamese?

 

[eckherl]

Only have this one. Yellow star in red circle with three digit ID. Isn't that Vietnamese?

Yep, that is a Vietnamese bimp 2, I wonder when they got them.

 

[the road runner]

Vietnam Air force
Mig-21............147
Su-22.............39
Su-27/30.........16

Special missions
Be-12(SAR)......4

Transport
An-26.............38+(2 in storage)
M-28...............1+(6 on order)

B]Combat helicopters[/B]
Ka-25..............5
Ka-28..............7
Ka-32..............2
Mi-8/17............32
Mi-24...............30

Training aircraft
L-39C...............26

These Figures are from Flight International(11-17 November 2008) Air Force Directory,i cannot post the link due to copyright laws(gf is finding out if its ok to post the link......it has all the aircraft inventory of Army,Navy and Air Force units from around the world )

 

[drjun]

Thanks for interesting in my country Vietnam's history and our equipments..
My VN's history and terrority was written and build by blood and bodies of brave of men, woman , children , and oldmans.
morethan 1000 years after China's invasion
morethan 80 years French's occupied
and 20 years of civil war

that s so enough for our people. We need peace. But we are not afraid of fighting with China.

About weapons.
We are upgrading gradually our military depending on economic growth and base on good relationship with many strong military industrial countries like France, Russia, Yugoslavia, Germany....
Now we are getting well with USA
But i think the Gov don't want Communist China to angry, that 's disadvantage of economy growth. American known that and he just help on what they can do.
But friendship is apparently raising. Because Vietnamese , though we look like china in culture , dislike China.
China always greedy especially on occupying another country 's land. Like India, Tibet ( be occupied) , ...
now we chose T72 is standard tank, Su27 is up now.
We don't fear China on land or air, just on the sea.

 

[eckherl]

Thanks for interesting in my country Vietnam's history and our equipments..
My VN's history and terrority was written and build by blood and bodies of brave of men, woman , children , and oldmans.
morethan 1000 years after China's invasion
morethan 80 years French's occupied
and 20 years of civil war

that s so enough for our people. We need peace. But we are not afraid of fighting with China.

About weapons.
We are upgrading gradually our military depending on economic growth and base on good relationship with many strong military industrial countries like France, Russia, Yugoslavia, Germany....
Now we are getting well with USA
But i think the Gov don't want Communist China to angry, that 's disadvantage of economy growth. American known that and he just help on what they can do.
But friendship is apparently raising. Because Vietnamese , though we look like china in culture , dislike China.
China always greedy especially on occupying another country 's land. Like India, Tibet ( be occupied) , ...
now we chose T72 is standard tank, Su27 is up now.
We don't fear China on land or air, just on the sea.

When will Vietnam recieve T-72s and from what country.

 

[Feanor]

And why T-72's? I was under the impression that Vietnam is doing well economically. Why not something like the T-90S if they want a Soviet/Russian design?

 

[Crunchy]

And why T-72's? I was under the impression that Vietnam is doing well economically. Why not something like the T-90S if they want a Soviet/Russian design?

The T-72 can also be an interim solution. My idea is that the army maybe wants to leapfrog generations.
Russia's new MBT (often called: T-95) is under development. So Vietnam maybe then will buy it and can use it for decades.
After democratization Western MBTs are also available for Vietnam.

The only military threat comes from the PRC and I doubt they will come over the land border once again.
Thailand has got only light tanks.

 

[macman]

A good interim package for Vietnam's fighter's would be cutting a joint deal with Russia/India for upgrading the Mig-21's to bison standard, getting Russia to give an overhaul to the older Sukhoi's, & integrating a mixed Russian/India electronics upgrade.

The Indian electronics package sounds pretty good & is a unified system that, if it can go on the Mig-27's, will likely be a good fit for the old Sukhoi's, & will likely be resonably cheap.

 

[Crunchy]

^^

Easteuropean countries, who have joined NATO/EU are transforming their forces/buying Western stuff.
There is equipment available, which is in good condition & have received minor upgrades during 90s. So I think Vietnam should try to get those pieces instead of upgrading Vietnam's wartime-equipment.
for example: Vietnam's 26 Hind-As all have seen action in Cambodia against the Red Khmer. It doesn't makes sense to upgrade them. But there some countries, who are going to retire their Hind-Ds. So maybe Vietnam can get some of those.

MiG-21: They are all late series Fishbeds - delivered in the late 70s. Not a single unit from the wartime. "From my sources" the two squadrons, which are guarding Hanoi & Saigon, have received the MiG-21-93 upgrade packgage.

Su-27: Upgrade package will come, but when?

about Indian systems: HAL LCA (especially when it will be equipped with the thrust-vectoring Eurofighter engine) has already caught the attention of the VPAF.

Ministry of Finance has freezed all deals/plans due world economic crisis.

This year only the Tatarstan frigate, which is completing sea trails, will be put into service. No other major system will be introduced/bought.

 

[SGMilitary]

Vietnam is rapidly modernising their armed forces lately.

I suppose it's a defensive capability.

I hope the entire ASEAN is improving on their defence capabilities.

What are the latest updates on their modernisation procurement?

 

[Crunchy]

http://www.straitstimes.com/vgn-ext-templating/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=56229de72565f110VgnVCM100000430a0a0aRCRD&vgnextchannel=0162758920e39010VgnVCM1000000a35010aRCRD

I didn't expect that the Spain & Sweden are already making deals with Vietnam's Armed Forces.

EDIT:
I found the press release of SSC's MSS 6000 Maritime Radar for Vietnam:

http://www.prioranet.com/?id=5104&cid=11523&DivId=5002&Year=2008

Also an older report:

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080603/FOREIGN/335996665/1002/NEWS