US air force learns from India

[Snauman]

OH I Dont Belive

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:eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :idea:



US air force learns from India

Agencies | June 24, 2004 16:49 IST


A recent training exercise with India has served as a "wake-up call" to the US Air Force, according to a top American general.

"We have to learn a lot of things from that," said General Hal Hornburg, head of the US Air Force's Air Combat Command, referring to the 'Cope India' exercise, conducted by the US and Indian air forces in Gwalior in February. "We have to learn if we want air superiority it doesn't come cheap and it's not automatic."

The Russian-made SU-30s are reported to have bested the USAF's F-15s in a majority of their engagements.

It pitted F-15Cs from the USAF's 3rd Wing out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska against a variety of Indian fighters like the Russian-made SU-30s, MiG-21s, MiG-29s and the French-made Mirage 2000s.



"In general, we may have learned some things that suggest we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were," he said.

He declined to discuss classified results of the exercise but said, "Something like Cope India, when we find that some of our advantages aren't as great as we thought they might be, leads me to remind people that we need to modernize our air-to-air capability."



Gen Hornburg said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15.

The exercises showed that the SU-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15Cs in a long-range fight, the trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month.



Gen Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in Cope India were not equipped with the latest radar.

"We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said.

 

[srirangan]

Well IAF pilots do get loads of training hours (250+) but still I believe the real test will come in July when the IAF in the Jaguars will face off against the USAF in Alaska.

In the Gwalior exercises IAF pilots were flying the Su-30 MK-1 and Mirage 2000's.

 

[adsH]

ofcource India would have an advantage the USAF were flying their F-15 C not E models without there integrated solutions. like Awacs. Backup support. The US DOD wants new Toys so they have to first get the Tax payers to read this!!! they have announced a new Procurement worth about 1 trillion Dollar, so ther is no question about it the US IS and will remain the Super POWER of the World.

 

[srirangan]

No one is questing the USAF's superiority. But just to point out neither airforce used any other backup such as AWACS.

 

[adsH]

No one is questing the USAF's superiority. But just to point out neither airforce used any other backup such as AWACS.

India dos not have awacs and just to make my intentions clear i am not downgrading or playing down the qualities and the abilities of IAF personnel, all i am sayinng is that the US in a Air campaign uses alot of other sorts of Attack mechanism other then Airpower, airpower is a significant but only one Part of the Entire force. So it is safe to assume what is lacking in the Quality of personal is made up by the other variables in the USAF (we have to run this through are heads too that the US uses the NAVal Air-wing to Attack. those are the best trained pilots and no one should even doubt for second that anyone could mess arround with them).
India will aquire Awac capability but it wont happen for some time. the Airframe has to be produced by the Russians the Israelis have to approve the platform is of reasonable construction, then they will have to Integrate the Falcon system into the Russian AC, this particular mix has never been done before so the design stage should take some time. then there are testing. its a new Integrated solution it would have to be tested. then the Personal training. i am sure they are training the personal right now as we speak but the Entire process would take longer then Acquiring and inducting a fighter Jet, something what we were talking about in one of the other Threads. operating an awac requires a differnt type of leadership management of not only the subsystems but a truly well organized Team. its easily said then done. But once inplace should be very Potent Platform. But then again the US E3c should be able to atleast Counter everything the Falcon has or even could Cause some problems for the falcons. so at the End USAF would win in any type of conflict. But i have never doubted that tHe IAF Personal are good!!

 

[Indus]

Same thing was reported by BBC WORLD.. Its hard to beleive, but again it probably had something to do with India using more advanced aircraft than U.S. in that exercise.. Interesting how come the news is just now coming out.


BBC WORLD - Thursday, 24 June, 2004, 01:20 GMT 02:20 UK

War games in India 'show up US'

By Nick Childs
BBC Pentagon correspondent

The success of India's air force against US fighters in an exercise suggests the US may be losing its air superiority, a US general has said.

Gen Hal Hornburg said an exercise in February, known as Cope India, had been "a wake-up call".

The mock air battles in central India had pitted US F-15s against advanced Russian-designed Sukhoi SU-30s.

General Hornburg said the results show the US may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as it had thought.


Cold War mentality

Of course, it suits the US Air Force at the moment to argue that it needs to invest more in air power, as it tries to get funding for advanced new planes like the next generation of stealth fighters, the F/A-22 and F-35.

Some analysts, and some members of Congress, argue that the air force is stuck in a Cold War mentality, and is pressing for planes that it does not really need.

But establishing air superiority and air dominance is key to US strategy and many in the air force have argued that there are still many more sophisticated potential adversaries out there than Iraq and Afghanistan.


LINK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3834843.stm

 

[adsH]

thankyou Indus. for that productive input. I have been saying the USAF wants new shinny toys !!

 

[adsH]

India nor china would never be able to keep up with allied nations Like ours, The US UK australia Canada and various other Naitons, the Ammount of research being done is amazeing, there is no way any one country can compete with this sort of collaboration and at this level.

 

[gf0012-aust]

India nor china would never be able to keep up with allied nations Like ours, The US UK australia Canada and various other Naitons, the Ammount of research being done is amazeing, there is no way any one country can compete with this sort of collaboration and at this level.

Since the early 1960's there has been a collaboration treaty in place between NATO and Australia. That's an enormous amount of co-operation in place.

Approx 3-4 years ago I worked on a ballistic weapons project and I liaised with nearly 12 countries on technical issues. Under that agreement, if the Australian Govt did not proceed with the technology, we could have then approached other countries for research fundng and moved offshore. As it was 3 countries wanted to fund it but wanted majority stakeholding - which wasn't going to be permitted as it was going to remain Australian.

When you have access to weapons experts, scientists, money and political will and intent from a group of countries, it is considerably more powerful than just what one country can do.

/hijack off

 

[mysterious]

In the end, the Americans turned out to be smart. They never pitted their F-16s or the F-117, so I'd say they still have more cards at their hand when it comes to playing time.

 

[srirangan]

Indians played it smart too, never pitted the MKI's ..

 

[gf0012-aust]

Before anyone gets carried away.

The planning exercise is mutual, both sides agree to field equipment that is comparable. Both sides did not field their best equipment.

The USAF had a squadron of F-22's available - they didn't deploy
The USAF had AESA equipped F-15D's at Elmendorf - they didn't deploy
The USAF did not use AWACs or any of their Compass series aircraft
IAF didn't field MKI's
IAF didn't deploy ACI/AWACs

The missions are jointly planned and are designed to extract learning solutions for both sides. It's not meant to have a winner and a loser

To put it bluntly, anyone who talks about DACT and says that their side won, demonstrates no knowledge of what DACT is meant to achieve.

It's an interoperability exercise, it's an learning exercise,, it's dissimilar training..

It's like watching someone show how to knock someone over in Kung Fu, and then watch someone else knock them over in BJJ, and then watching them spar together in a forms tournament - as opposed to full combat.

Read up on the treatise on DACT that lies elsewhere on this subject.

DACT is not a sideshow to pronounce a winner - it's a lot more sophisticated than that.

Ever wondered why NO actual pilots, be they IAF or USAF talk about this in the clear? It's because real pilots would tarnish their professionalism by stooping so low. It aint gentlemanly, and they realise that the exercise is designed for other reasons.

 

[adsH]

According to a report the USAF pitted the F-15C (older version) with newly trained pilots that are never on the front line cutting edge of an attack. so i would be cautious of the skewed results, i think the USAF did actually after all play Smart. th SU30 believe it or not, is almost the same thing as the MKI, and since it was not an EW warfare excercise i would think MKI electronics wouldn't of mattered any way the USAF went aways with a good understanding fo the IAF strike capability. and SU30 Platform performance. Now who says USAF learns from IAF.

p.s i will post a link for the article.

 

[gf0012-aust]

According to a report the USAF pitted the F-15C (older version) with newly trained pilots that are never on the front line cutting edge of an attack. so i would be cautious of the skewed results, i think the USAF did actually after all play Smart. th SU30 believe it or not, is almost the same thing as the MKI, and since it was not an EW warfare excercise i would think MKI electronics wouldn't of mattered any way the USAF went aways with a good understanding fo the IAF strike capability. and SU30 Platform performance. Now who says USAF learns from IAF.

p.s i will post a link for the article.

Both the USAF and IAF underplayed their hands.

 

[Deltared075]

India use the MKI in that exercise!

But i wonder why many people denied the India using the MKI?

 

[gf0012-aust]

India use the MKI in that exercise!

But i wonder why many people denied the India using the MKI?

They didn't.

NEW DELHI , FEBRUARY 16: The first Indo-US combat aircraft exercises in more than 40 years took off today with the IAF and USAF jets taking to the skies over Gwalior to familiarise themselves with the terrain. While both sides have held back their trump cards, the IAF held back the SU-30 MKI while the USAF refused to field the AWACS, F-16s and refuellers, the exercise is being viewed as a major learning experience for both the Air Forces. According to Air Headquarters, the IAF will be fielding the Mirage-2000, MiG-29, MiG-21 Bison and the SU-30K against the USAF's F-15C fighters. The first day was spent in familiarising pilots with local terrain from the air followed by joint briefing sessions. Over the next 10 days fighter pilots of both countries will be pitted against each other and will also fly ‘‘joint missions''. These include practicing intercepts, air combat manoeuvres, protection of high value assets and testing each other's radar capabilities. According to South Block officials, the IAF was keen on the USAF providing an AWACS platform during the air exercises. With India looking forward to signing a tripartite agreement to acquire the Phalcon radars, the IAF had discussed the presence of an AWACS during the exercises. However the USAF cited operational commitments for not being able to deploy the early warning radar, said sources. The IAF also turned down a USAF request to field the state-of-the-art SU-30MKI and the air exercises will only see the deployments of the older standard SU-30K. The military relations between India and the United States got a fillip when the Air Force of the two countries commenced their ten-day joint exercises in Gwalior on Monday. The combat exercise codenamed "Cope India 04" would see F-15 fighter jets of the US Air Force matching their skills against the MIG-21, MIG-29, Mirage-2000 and SU-30 of the Indian Air Force (IAF).The US team from the Pacific Command would undertake sophisticated and complex manoeuvre with the IAF jets including simulated beyond visual range combat, high value asset protection and a number of the low and high altitude combat missions.The US Pacific Command team flew in with their planes in two giant C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft for the event which would be witnessed by Air Chief Marshal S Krishanswamy and other top IAF brass in the coming days. The IAF was keen to match its formidable frontline fighter fleet with the F-16s but the US opted to send its F-15C, popularly known as "flying eagles." The IAF's deep penetration strike aircraft, Jaguar, was also slated to be included in the exercises. They would, however, participate in a similar joint exercise in Alaska where they would be pitted against the F-16s. The Indian and US Special Forces recently conducted joint exercises in Leh besides conducting similar drills in Agra early last year. These drills enabled the two forces to learn operational procedures adopted by their respective forces.(Indian Express,The Pioneer)

http://www.kashmirwatch.com/archive/17feb04/default.htm

The MKI was not fielded and with agreement as the US did not field the AESA equipped F-15's either.

The less diligent news reports are not accurate if they say it was. Some of the analysis that came out clearly shows that the MKI's were not fielded.

 

[lalith prasad]

su30k doesnt have tvc and canards nor the project vetrivale subsystems considerably inferior to the mki.it was meant to be platform for the mki upgrade and was taken only as an interim measure from russian airforce surplus stocks they are now being sent for mki upgrade.

 

[Soldier]

RUSSIAN FIGHTERS SUPERIOR, SAYS PENTAGON

The American military amazed Moscow and the Russian media by saying that Russian-made fighter planes were superior to their American equivalents. How can these flattering revelations be explained?

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

USA Today reported: We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought we were, said Gen. Hal Hornburg, the chief of the Air Combat Command, which oversees U.S. fighter and bomber wings...The F-15Cs are the Air Force's primary air superiority aircraft...[and] the results of the exercise [were] wake up call.

The Inside the Air Force official newsletter also discussed the "Russian victory," and reported even more details. F-15 C/D Eagle fighters were pitted against not only Su-30 MKI fighters but also MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and even the older MiG-21 Bisons, which also performed well. The fighters not only defeated the F-15s but the French-made Mirage-2000 as well. According to the Washington ProFile Web site, the results of the exercises surprised the American pilots.

Meanwhile, Russian military experts and aircraft designers did not seem surprised by these victories. The Sukhoi general designer, Mikhail Simonov, has repeatedly told RIA Novosti and other news agencies the Su-27 Flanker and the Su-30 MKI, a modified version of the Flanker, which are now in service in the Indian Air Force, were developed in the 1980s in response to the F-15 Eagle. Moreover, Soviet designers had stipulated far superior specifications. Consequently, Russian experts were not particularly surprised that the performance of the fighters matched their specifications.

Why did an American general publicly admit this fact four months after the exercises?

India's Su-30 MKI fighters and F-15 C/D Eagles from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, engaged in mock combat exercises in February 2004. However, no one mentioned that India won three of the four exercises at the time.

Russian fighters first defeated their US rivals when Sukhoi and MiG fighters had just started being shown at international aerospace shows in the early 1990s. At that time, several Su-27 fighters, under the command of Maj.-Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, the head of the Lipetsk center for retraining air force pilots, went to Canada to demonstrate their impressive potential. (President Vladimir Putin flew in a Su-27 to Chechnya.)

Instead of missiles and artillery shells, Russian and American fighter planes used aerial cameras to record their mock air-to-air battles. American fighters were disappointed to learn the results of exercise - their cameras had not captured any Su-27s. The Russians, however, had filmed their rivals' vulnerable points from just about every angle.

Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio. The fighter's unsurpassed performance has already become well known throughout the world because no other fighter (except MiG fighters) can execute such impressive stunts as Pugachev's Cobra and others.

The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

Apart from in Canada, MiG-29 fighters also fought mock air battles with South Africa's Mirage-2000s. Again, the Russia planes defeated their enemies.

Chief designer Arkady Slobodskoi, the supervisor of the MiG-29 program, said, "if our plane is within range of an opponent and has a direct shot, the enemy can be considered destroyed. It only takes 5-6 machine gun bursts."

The United States, which is aware of the impressive combat potential of Russian fighters, had even purchased a squadron of MiG-29s from Moldova after the Soviet Union disintegrated. (That squadron was deployed at an airfield near Chisinau.) Germany, which had obtained a number of MiG-29s after reunification, helped repair the Moldovan fighters. Both Germany and the United States now use these aircraft to train their pilots, so that the pilots can cope with the 7,000 Russian fighters in the world. Britain's Military Balance magazine estimated that India had more than 500 Russian-made fighters. It was therefore not surprising that Indian pilots could defeat their American rivals, despite the U.S. Air Force's intensive combat-training programs.

On the other hand, American pilots have not confronted any serious adversaries for a long time. The U.S. Air Force dominated the skies over Yugoslavia in 1999 and in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Iraqi planes were grounded during both campaigns. Therefore, mock combat is the only way to amass experience.

The long standing American Air Force mentality prevents its pilots from confronting their Russian counterparts because any possible setback would be detrimental to morale. An American Air Force pilot must be convinced that he can and must defeat the former "theoretical enemy." At the same time, these problems do not exist for mock combat exercises against Indian pilots because any defeats can be explained by inadequate training.

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.
http://www.cdi.org/russia/313-9.cfm

 

[Soldier]

America salutes air power, India cool

June 24: A top US general has acknowledged that the American air force was given a tough time during exercises with the Indian Air Force and has called for induction of more sophisticated fighters.

General Hal Hornburg, head of the US Air Combat Command, said a US air-to-air exercise with the IAF in February, in which India used Russian jets to defeat ageing American F-15Cs, revealed “that we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we wereâ€.

The IAF is a little taken aback by the praise from the US military establishment after its first joint fighter exercise with the US Air Force (USAF) in 40 years.

An IAF contingent that includes Jaguar ground-attack aircraft left for Alaska today to participate in multinational exercises hosted by the US Pacific air forces.

“We always knew we were good, but it is only when the US says so the world takes notice,†an IAF officer remarked cheekily.

Earlier this month, a US military journal, Inside the Air Force, said the American air force had a lot to learn from its Indian counterpart. Now, the general has admitted that the Indians taught them more than a lesson during Exercise Cope India 04 from February 17 to 25 in Gwalior.

US defence officials have said Indian Sukhoi-30, MiG-27 and older MiG-21 jets, some armed with Russian-made AA-10 air-to-air missiles, got the best of F-15Cs based in Alaska.

Hornburg said in an interview with military writers that the air manoeuvres emphasised his service’s push for expensive, stealthy new F/A-22 “Raptors†being built by Lockheed Martin Corp. and F-35 joint strike fighters being designed by Lockheed with inputs from allies.

He declined to discuss classified results of the exercise but said: “Something like Cope India, when we find that some of our advantages aren’t as great as we thought they might be, leads me to remind people that we need to modernise our air-to-air capability.â€

In Delhi, an IAF official said: “We have appreciated the compliments but we are being pragmatic. We have no doubt about the technological superiority of the US Air Force. The exercise in Gwalior was a low-level one and involved conventional fighter tactics.â€

The US had sent five F-15C Eagles — air superiority fighters — and 130 airmen to participate in the exercise, the first involving fighters of the IAF and the USAF since Exercise Shiksha in 1963.

IAF sources said the Gwalior exercise involved two days of familiarisation flying, following which the aircraft engaged in three kinds of exercises: air offensive operations (including ground attack), protection of high-value aerial assets (like transporters and refuellers) and interception (part of air defence operations).

US fighters were never put in a direct and even face-off with IAF fighters during the exercises. Also, the IAF enjoyed superiority in numbers.

The USAF had had very little experience with aircraft like the Su-30 before. For the IAF, it was an opportunity to observe the F-15C, which are operated by the Pakistan Air Force.

One of the reasons the IAF is taking the praise lightly is that the exercise did not involve use of sophisticated technology.

“I think the US participants would have been a little surprised by the flying skill of our pilots,†the officer said. “But we are aware that their armaments and avionics are much superior.â€

The officer said the exercise did not cover such aspects of modern air warfare as Beyond Visual Range flying and firing.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040625/asp/nation/story_3414976.asp

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: RUSSIAN FIGHTERS SUPERIOR, SAYS PENTAGON

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.

The USAF has been training against Mig-29's since 1989. It has over 29 aircraft that it has only just recently retired from the aggressor squadrons. There are also unconfirmed reports that it has a flight of Su-27's that have been modified to perform ala Su-30's.

Recently the Smithsonian took delivery of an Su-23 that was not listed on any of the foreign aircraft acquisition lists - and they had been told that no history would be supplied for that aircraft. They have also received a modified Mig-21 which also is not declared on acquisition registers. The US has a special unit who's sole task is to analyse and acquire foreign miltech. According to one of personnel attached there, he's indicated to me that they virtually have a copy of every platform used in a frontline units. He's never expressed any major concern about capability differences, and has been more than open about how good Su-27/30 gensets are, but he's never been concerned about performance mismatches.

Another words, the USAF is unlikely to be in "shock" over Su-27/30 - F-15 performance differences as it is a known quantity.

What is more interesting is that there have been congressional hiccups on the progress of the F-22. It's more likely to be a statement to nudge Congress along to argue that there are performance discrepancies and that the US needs the F-22/F-35b/JSF to maintain a quality edge. It's politics at work folks.