UK-Saudi Typhoon-Storm Imminent??

[Izzy1]

UK Daily Mail, 24/11/2006

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=418481&in_page_id=1770

50,000 British jobs at risk if vital defence deal is lost
By BENEDICT BROGAN Last updated at 22:00pm on 24th November 2006.

The Saudis have threatened to pull out of a £76 billion contract with BAE Systems to provide new fighter aircraft.

More than 50,000 high-tech jobs could be lost "within days" unless Tony Blair intervenes to save a vital defence deal with Saudi Arabia, Downing Street was warned this week.

Ministers have been told to brace themselves for a potential economic "disaster" in the wake of an explosive behind-the-scenes dispute with one of Britain's most influential allies.

The Saudis have threatened to pull out of a massive £76 billion contract with BAE Systems to provide new fighter aircraft unless a long-running bribes inquiry by the Serious Fraud Office is wound up.

They say they are ready to do business with France instead if the investigation - into an alleged £60 million "slush fund" set up by BAE for the benefit of members of the Saudi royal family - is allowed to continue.

The oil giant has also threatened a cooling of political relations with the UK by downgrading diplomatic contacts and withholding cooperation in the fight against al-Qa'eda.

The crisis has been building in Whitehall for days and could inflict severe damage on one of Britain's most successful manufacturing industries.
BAE Systems has told the Government to prepare for up to 50,000 job losses involving some of the country's most highly-skilled workforce.

It expects to discover "within days" if a contract to build 72 new Eurofighter aircraft - the Typhoon - for the desert kingdom is about to be torn up.
Senior figures from BAE, backed by diplomats and several Cabinet ministers, have been locked in frantic exchanges this week with Mr Blair and his advisers over the row.

They are waiting for the outcome of talks between Saudi Arabia and France which sources claim are poised to produce a rival deal to buy 24 French Rafale jets - Typhoon's competitor.

If France clinches the contract, it will be seen as a clear sign that Saudi Arabia is prepared to dump the deal to buy Typhoons that has been in negotiations for more than a year.

The SFO has been looking into the BAE corruption claims for three years. Money paid in "kickbacks" has allegedly gone towards buying luxury holidays, rented apartments in European capitals and even a gold Rolls Royce.
The cash was allegedly paid as a sweetener to secure the landmark "al-Yamamah" series of defence deals with Saudi Arabia initially brokered by Margaret Thatcher 20 years ago.

SFO investigators have being trying to get access to Swiss bank accounts allegedly used by wealthy Saudis to fund lavish lifestyles.

The investigation has infuriated the Saudis, who sources say feel "insulted" that their reputation is being tarnished by a British agency.
They claim Tony Blair agreed to try to call off the investigation when he visited Saudi Arabia for secret talks about the Typhoon deal last year.
The Attorney General Lord Goldsmith, the minister responsible for the SFO, has steadfastly refused to intervene in the case but he is under growing pressure to use his powers to order the SFO to produce charges or close its investigation.

Other ministers involved in the case concede privately that the Government would face a barrage of criticism from MPs if it was seen to be meddling in the work of independent investigators.

They fear that the SFO is dragging out an inquiry for which there is little evidence of wrongdoing and putting the British national interest at risk.

A senior BAE Systems executive said: "The Saudis are threatening to go elsewhere, and you can't blame them. They keep being insulted.
"If they sign this French deal within days, the consequences could be catastrophic. We are talking about 50,000 jobs."

The Saudi ultimatum was reportedly set out in blunt terms in a 12-page letter delivered inperson by the country's London ambassador to Jonathan Powell, Mr Blair's chief of staff.

The company employs 100,000 worldwide, including 4000 in Saudi Arabia. The new Typhoon contract was vital to the future prospects of its production site at Warton in Lancashire.

Publicly, the company maintains it has done nothing wrong and there is no question of any laws being broken. It is cooperating with the SFO.
Sources claim the alleged slush fund is a long-standing arrangement that dos not involve the use of BAE systems shareholder money.

They claim that contracts with Saudi Arabia are priced to include an extra commission element that is then paid to Saudis involved in brokering the deal - in effect money paid by the Saudi government is then channeled back to Saudi middlemen.

But the company has been hit by the arrest of several current and former executives, who deny any wrongdoing.

The Saudis "hit the roof" when they discovered in September that the SFO had persuaded a Swiss magistrate to grant access to secret bank accounts.
The country's ruling royal family reportedly ordered its representative in London, Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf, to demand explanations from Downing Street.

Their letter is said to have complained that the SFO investigation amounted to a breach of the Government's undertaking to keep the detail of the al-Yamamah deal under wraps.

The ambassador also told Mr Powell that Saudi Arabia would consider breaking diplomatic ties and ending intelligence cooperation.

But Whitehall sources cautioned that the kingdom depends on intellgience from MI6 to combat al-qa'eda, which is intent on deposing the ruling royal family.

And they say that despite posturing on both sides, the Typhoon contract is too valuable to both British and Saudi interests to be cancelled.

First Singapore, then possibly Austria and now maybe Saudis too... Eurofighter's export woes continue (again however, not due to its own making I must add).

This story could blow up over the next few days both here and in the UK. Maybe we haven't seen the last of Rafale in Saudi skies afterall...

 

[Simon9]

UK Daily Mail, 24/11/2006
They say they are ready to do business with France instead if the investigation - into an alleged £60 million "slush fund" set up by BAE for the benefit of members of the Saudi royal family - is allowed to continue.

LOL the Saudis really know how to wound the Brits, don't they? nfloorl:

I wonder if the implication is that the French are totally okay with slush funds being provided to the Saudi Royal Family...

 

[DragonKing786]

LOL the Saudis really know how to wound the Brits, don't they? nfloorl:

I wonder if the implication is that the French are totally okay with slush funds being provided to the Saudi Royal Family...

Can the french finally be able to sell their rafales nfloorl: after such a long waiting period?!

 

[Miles]

Its just a pity that Britain can't do the same thing!!

 

[contedicavour]

LOL the Saudis really know how to wound the Brits, don't they? nfloorl:

I wonder if the implication is that the French are totally okay with slush funds being provided to the Saudi Royal Family...

Honestly ? Yes of course they are. The Taiwanese Lafayette FFG deal included an amazing amount of slush funds. Dassault is desperate to export Rafales, and if all it takes is slush funds then some way to pay them with taxpayer money will certainly be found.
Remember there are presidential elections next spring here in France, and creating employment is priority number 1.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

In the arms trade, no one gets anything for playing by the rule book. Sometimes you have to cheat and bribe your way to get a deal. It's partly because so many other people do it.

But really, when so much money is at stake is pissing people off worth it? If the Serious Fraud Office can't make the case stick after three years without opening these accounts, I have a feeling that they're only still going with this because they're refusing to give up. They'll drag anyone down with them, rather than admit they can't "win".

 

[contedicavour]

In the arms trade, no one gets anything for playing by the rule book. Sometimes you have to cheat and bribe your way to get a deal. It's partly because so many other people do it.

But really, when so much money is at stake is pissing people off worth it? If the Serious Fraud Office can't make the case stick after three years without opening these accounts, I have a feeling that they're only still going with this because they're refusing to give up. They'll drag anyone down with them, rather than admit they can't "win".

Fully agree with you. Does the UK have something like a supreme court of justice that could intervene to accelerate the archiving of the procedure ? I imagine politicians can't do anything about it because the judiciary is indepenent.
As an Italian, ie part to a sizeable part of the revenues from the Typhoon deal to Saudi Arabia, I would be more than pissed off at losing all of this because of unproven allegations !!

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Fully agree with you. Does the UK have something like a supreme court of justice that could intervene to accelerate the archiving of the procedure ? I imagine politicians can't do anything about it because the judiciary is indepenent.

Of course we have a "Supreme Court", the House of Lords - it's the best in Europe!

However the Courts could not suspend an investigation like this, unless the person/persons/company/companies being investigated could allege harrassment or something similar. That said the Attorney General does have the ability to insist the Serious Fraud Office press charges or drop the matter, though at the moment it is very difficult to see what he might do.

It is impossible to know what the Saudis are really thinking. This could just be a bit of petulance, given how much they rely on us for defence support, military intelligence, etc. BAe are doubtlessly making as much fuss in public to try to keep them sweet and put pressure on the SFO. Hopefully after some more discussions this will sort itself out.

Mind you if this does go horribly wrong, the real culprit will be Tony Blair. He promised the Saudis he would do something he had no power to do - "stop" the investigation/turn it away from them. It would be worth a letter to The Times over, I know that much.

 

[Big-E]

76 billion quid??? What exactly did Saudi expect to get for this much money?

 

[Izzy1]

76 billion quid??? What exactly did Saudi expect to get for this much money?

I must admit Big-E, I was a bit suprised at the 76 Billion quoted. The general figure used by other UK media has been between 6 and 10 Billion GBP for the initial delivery of 72 Typhoon.

Infrastructure development and associated support contracts are estimated to triple this figure over the next 20 years.

The Daily Mail may have been confused by a recent statement by the Saudi Government that it intends to spend 60 Billion US$ on new defence acquitions over the next several years - but that is far from exclusive to BAE.

 

[LancerMc]

I am curious why in the world the Saudi Royal family would need to be paid off to gain a Eurofighter contract? They are already some of the richest people in the world. Whats 60 million pounds to a few people that already have billions of pounds?

Now military contracts have always had a little unfairness to them. BAe is accused of doing what a lot of the other companies like Boeing (recent failed KC-767 lease), and Lockheed Martin (reportedly in the F-22 decision) have done before. I wouldn't doubt Dassualt would do the same thing to gain a huge contract for the Rafale.

 

[swerve]

I am curious why in the world the Saudi Royal family would need to be paid off to gain a Eurofighter contract? They are already some of the richest people in the world. Whats 60 million pounds to a few people that already have billions of pounds?

You've not been reading very carefully . . . there aren't a few of them - there are thousands. Last estimate I saw was (wait for it . . . . . ) 12000 recognised princes. A few have billions each, & between them, control the rest of the family money. Most of the rest get small stipends. They may live off their stipends, or work to top them up. A minority (hundreds) work in official posts, some where they might be able to influence a major military purchase, or are close enough to someone who does that they might be able to influence them. Most of those with official jobs are well paid, but not super-rich. A bung of a few million is big money to these blokes.

 

[SATAN]

Of course we have a "Supreme Court", the House of Lords - it's the best in Europe!

However the Courts could not suspend an investigation like this, unless the person/persons/company/companies being investigated could allege harrassment or something similar. That said the Attorney General does have the ability to insist the Serious Fraud Office press charges or drop the matter, though at the moment it is very difficult to see what he might do.

It is impossible to know what the Saudis are really thinking. This could just be a bit of petulance, given how much they rely on us for defence support, military intelligence, etc. BAe are doubtlessly making as much fuss in public to try to keep them sweet and put pressure on the SFO. Hopefully after some more discussions this will sort itself out.

Mind you if this does go horribly wrong, the real culprit will be Tony Blair. He promised the Saudis he would do something he had no power to do - "stop" the investigation/turn it away from them. It would be worth a letter to The Times over, I know that much.

Mod edit: This sort of conspiracy theory rubbish and outright racism is not tolerated here. You've been warned already be Gf. You won't be again. If you wish to continue playing, play fairly and abide by the rules.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The Story line goes like this. The person heading the investigation is a certain Mr.Goldsmith who also happens to be a jew and a die hard supporter of Israel and its interests....

Oh, please - that is just anti-Semitic bull. Just because Goldsmith is Jewish it means everything he does has Israel in mind? Yeah, we've heard that all before.

Why should he damage British rule-of-law just to please the Saudis? It's not his job to hush up embarrassing investigations.

 

[Big-E]

Oh, please - that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. Just because Goldsmith is Jewish it means everything he does has Israel in mind? Yeah, we've heard that all before.

Why should he damage British rule-of-law just to please the Saudis? It's not his job to hush up embarrassing investigations.

Hey, I think SATAN might be Mel incognito... nfloorl:

 

[SATAN]

Oh, please - that is just anti-Semitic bull. Just because Goldsmith is Jewish it means everything he does has Israel in mind? Yeah, we've heard that all before.

Why should he damage British rule-of-law just to please the Saudis? It's not his job to hush up embarrassing investigations.

History speaks for itself.:

Admin: Text deleted. That kind of response is unacceptable. Getting personal and insulting steps beyond the standards of reasoned debate.

 

[SATAN]

LOL the Saudis really know how to wound the Brits, don't they? nfloorl:

I wonder if the implication is that the French are totally okay with slush funds being provided to the Saudi Royal Family...

Britan didnt have a problem bribing the Saudis for the seriously over priced and useless Tornado contract?? So why start now unless theres a political motive attached to it? Britan has a history of corrupt pratices so why the big deal when the Eurofighter has a chance at a major international sale?

The French would have NO problem setting up slush funds for the Saudis, so i'd rather see the Saudis buy the Rafales instead of the Typhoon (way too many strings and idiotic inteference)

 

[swerve]

History speaks for itself.: Why take your foot out of your mouth and speak if you dont have anything intelligent to blurt out?
Give us another explanation if you have one???

Happy hannukah.

Where are the moderators when you need them?

Mod edit: Around. Some of us do things BEYOND moderating DefTalk you know... Cheers.