Turkish Navy Escorting Gaza-bound Ships

[Armoredpriapism]

Turkish Warships To Escort Aid Vessels To Gaza - Defense News
I just read this article and I have a few questions. Basically it says that Turkey plans to escort another round of humanitarian aid ships to Gaza. As far as I know, last time humanitarian ships tried to run the blockade they were boarded, an action which resulted in some deaths.
If Turkey does this will it spark a war with Israel? Afterall, isn't running a blockade by force an act of war? Isn't that why in the cuban missile crisis we called it a "quarantine" instead of a blockade?
What would be NATO's response to this? What would be EU's response to this? Is Turkey politically trying to end the blockade of Gaza?

 

[wormhole]

Turkish Warships To Escort Aid Vessels To Gaza - Defense News
I just read this article and I have a few questions. Basically it says that Turkey plans to escort another round of humanitarian aid ships to Gaza. As far as I know, last time humanitarian ships tried to run the blockade they were boarded, an action which resulted in some deaths.
If Turkey does this will it spark a war with Israel? Afterall, isn't running a blockade by force an act of war? Isn't that why in the cuban missile crisis we called it a "quarantine" instead of a blockade?
What would be NATO's response to this? What would be EU's response to this? Is Turkey politically trying to end the blockade of Gaza?

This is where diplomats have to earn their pay. I also hope the ROEs are understood by everyone otherwise there could be some nastiness.

 

[Cadredave]

Turkish Warships To Escort Aid Vessels To Gaza - Defense News
I just read this article and I have a few questions. Basically it says that Turkey plans to escort another round of humanitarian aid ships to Gaza. As far as I know, last time humanitarian ships tried to run the blockade they were boarded, an action which resulted in some deaths.
If Turkey does this will it spark a war with Israel? Afterall, isn't running a blockade by force an act of war? Isn't that why in the cuban missile crisis we called it a "quarantine" instead of a blockade?
What would be NATO's response to this? What would be EU's response to this? Is Turkey politically trying to end the blockade of Gaza?

The Palmer report stated that Israel had a legal right to blockade Gaza, this if it did occur could become very nasty indeed IMO Turkey is sabre rattling over the UN report to save face.

CD

 

[Tango1992]

turkey had done the right decision
last time freedom flotilla attack lead turkey to make this final decision
the aid ship that was raided by Israel was never run out of blockade///it was in open sea marked by UN as a open coast line
Israel had been stamping Gaza and Palestinians on grounds and don't even let the aid to reach them
its ridiculous.....the world allies have problem with Libya and Syrian ongoing situations and have started a war against them but no one is concerned over the worst humanity behaviors of Israel armed forces over Gaza and Palestinians

 

[Armoredpriapism]

turkey had done the right decision
last time freedom flotilla attack lead turkey to make this final decision
the aid ship that was raided by Israel was never run out of blockade///it was in open sea marked by UN as a open coast line
Israel had been stamping Gaza and Palestinians on grounds and don't even let the aid to reach them
its ridiculous.....the world allies have problem with Libya and Syrian ongoing situations and have started a war against them but no one is concerned over the worst humanity behaviors of Israel armed forces over Gaza and Palestinians

Regardless, the UN said the blockade was legal, so if Turkey plans to run that blockade what's their endgame? Are they going to escort the ships into Israel's waters then turn back? That wouldn't do anything but delay the Israeli action. Is Turkey just fumbling over trying to make a point?
Also, I wonder how much the "military coup" Turkey claims to have had has influenced their recent posture.

 

[Volkodav]

Regardless, the UN said the blockade was legal, so if Turkey plans to run that blockade what's their endgame? Are they going to escort the ships into Israel's waters then turn back? That wouldn't do anything but delay the Israeli action. Is Turkey just fumbling over trying to make a point?
Also, I wonder how much the "military coup" Turkey claims to have had has influenced their recent posture.

A very dangerous situation, religious zealots on both sides directing the actions of their mostly secular militaries.

I think this is the perfect example why separation of church (religion) and state is a very good idea.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

turkey had done the right decision
last time freedom flotilla attack lead turkey to make this final decision
the aid ship that was raided by Israel was never run out of blockade///it was in open sea marked by UN as a open coast line
Israel had been stamping Gaza and Palestinians on grounds and don't even let the aid to reach them
its ridiculous.....the world allies have problem with Libya and Syrian ongoing situations and have started a war against them but no one is concerned over the worst humanity behaviors of Israel armed forces over Gaza and Palestinians

None of the above is remotely true and I good indication for the rest of us why Turkey is doing this stupid stuff – they have told a bunch of lies to themselves.

Any ship running a blockade can be intercepted anywhere on the high seas it doesn’t actually have to be at some line in the water. Since the ships of the pro Palestinian partisans had declared they were heading towards Gaza it was perfectly legal for the Israelis to board them far out to sea.

Gaza gets huge quantities of aide everyday over the land borders. Most of this comes in from Israel, including all their electricity. Gaza has some of the highest concentrations of UN and other aide workers in the world and every Palestinian is provided with far more money and food than anyone else in a crisis spot around the world. The Sudanese, Afghans and Somalis wish they had the same aide as the Palestinians.

Israel only launches military attacks on Gaza to counter their rocket fire and terrorist attacks into Israel. Unlike the rockets and terrorists these Israeli attacks are targeted towards the terror military units. It is the policies of Hamas in Gaza that has lead to blockade and the cutting of economic ties between Gaza and Israel. This has caused the lack of economic development in Gaza not any act of the Israelis.

It is very hard to be sympathetic to the situation of Gaza and the pro-Palestinian partisans from Turkey who were killed when it was their own actions that have lead to this outcome. It is much easier to be on their side if you ignore the truth and believe a pack of lies, which unfortunately many in Turkey do.

 

[Ananda]

A very dangerous situation, religious zealots on both sides directing the actions of their mostly secular militaries.

I think this is the perfect example why separation of church (religion) and state is a very good idea.

I still see the Economics do matter in here. Turkey and Israel now tying to get more influence on potential gas field in the Med sea bed. It,s contested by Israel, Lebanon, Cyprus, and Turkey wants in the game. Cyprus now got support from Israel on gas issue drilling, and that 'pissed Turks who control a third of Cyprus. Lebanon trying to claim but face it's does not have capabilities to contest meds. Turkey trying to be seen by (perhaps Lebanon), that they can support Med operations, thus if lebanon will give Turks company to drill on their claim,Turks can support them.

 

[Armoredpriapism]

Turkey knows it'll eventually become more powerful than Israel. Why would they risk starting strife decades before they have a clear advantage? Also, why does Israel seem to think it has a chance at keeping the status quo in the long run? They need to mend fences with their neighbors before those neighbors become more important to the world than Israel is. Israel doesn't have the demographics to remain a regional superpower into the distant future. It seems like both parties are without competent leadership.
But that's just my take on that. Back to the matter of the thread, what would happen if warships from two modern nations exchanged fire and lost lives? The question to both of them should be, who you gonna call? Turkey can't ask NATO for help because the US would "urge" the member countries to stay out of it, and I doubt the US would ever fire a weapon in anger against the only Muslim member of NATO. Furthermore I can see the US seeing that scenario as a threat to the whole organization.

 

[Volkodav]

Turkey knows it'll eventually become more powerful than Israel. Why would they risk starting strife decades before they have a clear advantage? Also, why does Israel seem to think it has a chance at keeping the status quo in the long run? They need to mend fences with their neighbors before those neighbors become more important to the world than Israel is. Israel doesn't have the demographics to remain a regional superpower into the distant future. It seems like both parties are without competent leadership.
But that's just my take on that. Back to the matter of the thread, what would happen if warships from two modern nations exchanged fire and lost lives? The question to both of them should be, who you gonna call? Turkey can't ask NATO for help because the US would "urge" the member countries to stay out of it, and I doubt the US would ever fire a weapon in anger against the only Muslim member of NATO. Furthermore I can see the US seeing that scenario as a threat to the whole organization.

As an outsider it just seems very sad that two countries that had and continue to have so many common interests and such a good relationship are now suffering such poor relations.

I note that a significant number of senior Turkish officers recently resigned due to disagreement with the direction the government was taking. I have a lot of time for Turkey and count a number of Turks among my friends and others as admired acquaintances as such am very concerned that a vocal minority have high jacked one of the most progressive and promising countries in the rejoin.

 

[STURM]

What would be NATO's response to this? What would be EU's response to this? Is Turkey politically trying to end the blockade of Gaza?

The question we should really be asking is what will be Israels's response to the Arab Spring and a Turkey which is becoming more assertive? I say this because like the West, Israel was totally taken by surprised by events in Arab countries. Under U.S. pressure, Mubarak sealed his border with Gaza, to Israel's approval off course. What will happen when Egypt completely opens the border or when its population pressures the governmentto be more vocal over the Palestinian issue? How will Israel react in the near future if the Arabs, the majority of whom have made it clear that they are willing to formalise relations with Israel if certain conditions are met, form a united front in demanding a final settlement to the Palestinian/Israel issue? Will Israel realise that things have changed and a new way of doing things and treating other countries is required or will it stick to its old ways by relying on unconditional U.S. support to shield it from criticism in the UN and by doind what it likes using national security as an excuse?

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/09/20119105843672975.html

I have a lot of time for Turkey and count a number of Turks among my friends and others as admired acquaintances as such am very concerned that a vocal minority have high jacked one of the most progressive and promising countries in the rejoin.

And how and what have they hijacked? Just because Tukey is being more assetive or is standing up for what it believes inm does not in any way mean the country's foreign policy has been hijacked. Turkey is still a secular country, irrespective of whether the military's influence has lessen, and the fact remains that a large percentage of the Turkish population, even before the incident at sea, were very against Israel's continued blockade of Gaza. The fact remains
9 citizens of a country were killed trying to break a blockade, by military forces of a country that was conducting and enforcing a blockade over territory it doesn't legally own.

It's very easy discussing the wrights and wrongs of what happened and appointing blame, when it wasn't involving citizens of the country we are from. If citizens of a Western country were killed, and an apology was not forthcoming, would we be having this discussion if that Western country decided to revise relations and escort aid convoys into Gaza? Or are we saying that different rules apply to different countries? What would have been Israel's reaction if Egyptian security forces has got into a fight with militants and had killed several Isreali border guards by mistake?

Perhaps instead of pointing all the blame at Turkey and forming conclusions that Turkey is acting irrationaly and is telling a pack of lies, we should examine the illogical and inconsiderate move by Israel not to apologise or at least back down and offer something to the Turkish government. What is even more ludicrous and far fetched from reality is Israeli expectations that ties between both sides would not be effected. And we should realise that no country, Israel included, has a monopoly in truth and common sense.

 

[Armoredpriapism]

And how and what have they hijacked?? Just bacause Tukey is being more assetive does mean the country's foreign policy has been hijacked by anyone. Turkey is still a secular country and the fact remains that a large percentage of the Turkish population, even before the incident at sea, were very against Israel's continued blockade of Gaza. Though what really happened at sea is between the Israelis and 'activists' still a bit hazzy, the fact remains that 9 citizens of a country were killed trying to break a blockafe dine by another country over territory it doesn't legally own... If citizens of a Western country were killed, and an apology was not fortcoming, would we be having this discussion if that Western country decided to escort air convoys into Gaza?
Perhaps instead of pointing all the blame at Turkey we should examine the illogical move by Israel not to apologise or at least back down and offer something to the Turkish government.

Professional officer corps can usually be trusted to be more prudent than elected officials. I think that's what he was getting at. If a country would kill or risk being killed over an apology that country is unstable. What scares me is that this suggests the leadership of Turkey is making decisions based off emotion. When has a country ever made a move based off emotion that's turned out in its favor?
I don't think Turkey really means to over-"assert" itself right now, but I do think they're playing a chess game and trying to back Israel into something. Because I don't really know what Turkey wants I don't know what that something could be, but I'm sure if there were a big internationally watched stand off between the Turks, seemingly willing to start a war to "bring aid to refugees", and the Israelis seemingly willing to have a war in order to prevent aid to refugees, even though no war would start the Israelis would still look like dicks and the whole thing would bring more attention to the Gaza situation. Any takers?

 

[phrank]

So if Israel decided to send aid to the poor kurds who are just trying to have a homeland Turkey would be fine with that? I mean the kurds have a claim to the lands they want and just want to have a home country surely the people of Turkey would be grateful to Israel for helping these poor people live there dreams.

 

[rip]

Since this is a political question not strictly a military one I think it is prudent to ask an additional political question, why is Abdullah Gül, the undistuped leader and freely elected president of Turkey doing this? Logically there are only two possibilities to consider.

The first possibility is he is letting a group of pro- Palestine, pro-Islamic protesters determine what Turkish foreign policy is going to be. Which would make him look both week and possibly stupid. Or a far more likely possibility is that Abdullah Gül is using the protesters as a stalking horse to justify a major fatal change in Turkey foreign policy. A change in policy both against Israel ( A very popular stance in the Islamic world), with the additional goal of becoming the Islamic world’s predominate leading political figure picking up the dropped mantel where Abdel Nasser left off.

I am not an expert on Turkish internal politics where there is little potential political or instructional opposition at the current time but I am a keen observer of ambitious men and their methods, and he seems to fit the bill.

 

[gf0012-aust]

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