Turkey interested in buying 70-100 Eurofighter jets - report

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Thu, 3 Nov 2005, 11:42

MILAN: The Turkish government has made a 'request of information' to Finmeccanica SpA's unit Alenia Aeronautica in view of the possible purchase of 70-100 Eurofighter military jets, the daily MF said without giving a source.
Alenia is in charge of marketing the fighter plane in certain markets, including Turkey.
The plane is built by a consortium grouping European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co NV (EADS), BAE Systems PLC and Alenia.
If Turkey confirms its interest in the jets, purchase talks could start early 2006 and represent an order of at least 3.5 bln eur, MF said.
URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003988.php

Firstly i want to say that Turkey really wants to upgrade its militery forces, 70-100 EURO Fighters are a lot and its price is too high,cant Turkey stick to US fighters which would be coming in the future such as JSF (No chance of raptor ).
There reasons might be these.
Stealthy AC and a lot of hardpoints but range??:confused:
And the other reason can be political i.e Turkey wants to be a part of Europeon Union
 

aaaditya

New Member
ef2000 seems to be a bit of a wrong choice as of now:
1)as of now only airdefence variant is available.
2)last heard it had problems with its 23mm cannon.
3)very high cost(around 70million dollars per aircraft)

purchase of this aircraft will mean that they may face some budgetary cobnstraints in acquiring the 200 attack helicopters(russian ka50 equipped with the israeli avionics is the favourite).

by the way does anyone know how much turkey has allocated in its defence budget for the various acquisition programmes.
 

armage

New Member
aaaditya said:
ef2000 seems to be a bit of a wrong choice as of now:
1)as of now only airdefence variant is available.
2)last heard it had problems with its 23mm cannon.
3)very high cost(around 70million dollars per aircraft)

purchase of this aircraft will mean that they may face some budgetary cobnstraints in acquiring the 200 attack helicopters(russian ka50 equipped with the israeli avionics is the favourite).

by the way does anyone know how much turkey has allocated in its defence budget for the various acquisition programmes.
here's a site
The Turkish Ministry of Defense budget is approximately 3.6 percent of the GNP on average and around 12 percent in the Consolidated Budget, which is the highest spending in NATO.
http://byrd.senate.gov/ATTP_Market_Features/Defense/defense.html
 

Cyclop

New Member
aaaditya said:
ef2000 seems to be a bit of a wrong choice as of now:
1)as of now only airdefence variant is available.
2)last heard it had problems with its 23mm cannon.
3)very high cost(around 70million dollars per aircraft)
1) request in early 2006 - in the 2nd half of 2007 the multirole Eurofighter (Tranche II) is available -> no problem.
2) no problems with the gun - and it is a 27mm Mauser.
3) very high costs compared to which compareable aircraft?
I belive the Eurofighter would be a very good choice for Turkey.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Cyclop said:
1) request in early 2006 - in the 2nd half of 2007 the multirole Eurofighter (Tranche II) is available -> no problem.
2) no problems with the gun - and it is a 27mm Mauser.
3) very high costs compared to which compareable aircraft?
I belive the Eurofighter would be a very good choice for Turkey.
1 But there are already 4 costumers for this plane when turkey would be able to get its turn may be in 2010.
2 Gun problem is solved and i think this is a minor thing to mention.
3 He meant to say that its cost is very high compared to the other 4.5 gen ACs i.e SU30 but i the prices seems to be equal to the Rafale.
4 Who Knows they better know their defence requirements
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
kashifshahzad said:
Stealthy AC and a lot of hardpoints but range??:confused:
Why ask about range etc unless you know their requirements? Procurement works in reverse. You define the requirements via doctrine and posture - then find a platform fit. The average person uses the opposite logic - and that has no bearing in the real world

kashifshahzad said:
Turkey wants to be a part of Europeon Union
and they can pick Gripen or Rafale if its a requirement to buy European to facilitate entry - the Turks are sophisticated buyers. I think you'll find its a bit more complex than just smoothing an EU entry.

kashifshahzad said:
But there are already 4 costumers for this plane when turkey would be able to get its turn may be in 2010.
I can assure you that if the other consortia members decide that its better to have a larger buyout at interim, then they'll forego some of their own aircraft to preserve a volume buyer. The consortia members already know what they need for a break even, its the supplementary numbers that are critical, and as such are a bonus to be realised as fast as possible.

All major volume customers can be converted to lead customers - and thus they stand a good chance of getting prioritised or bumped up the queue even if the consortia buyers spill their numbers around.
 

Cyclop

New Member
In fact the production countries (especially GB) would appreciate to pay for their own aircraft later. It would be no problem to deliver at least an initial batch in a short period of time.
Turkey will possibly replace their F-4E Phantoms with the Eurofighter and later their F-16 and F-5 with the F-35. Interesting enough that Italy is responsible for the turkish market (Italy wants to buy F-35s too). As a F-4E replacement the Eurofighter is a good choice.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Cyclop said:
1) request in early 2006 - in the 2nd half of 2007 the multirole Eurofighter (Tranche II) is available -> no problem.
2) no problems with the gun - and it is a 27mm Mauser.
3) very high costs compared to which compareable aircraft?
I belive the Eurofighter would be a very good choice for Turkey.
i believe mirage2000-5,jas39 gripen and the rafale would be better options than the ef2000.
i remember reading in a flight magazine that the ef2000 would cost around 70 million dollars/aircraft,so that seems realy expensive.
by the way does anyone know what is turkey's gnp in dollar terms.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
aaaditya said:
i believe mirage2000-5,jas39 gripen and the rafale would be better options than the ef2000.
I can't think of any justification to buy Gripen or M2K - in fact the M2K would be a retro step. I can see some relevance in Rafale - but against EF2000 as far as overall advantages - not at all. What are the requirements that Turkey has that make any of the other 3 more attractive?.

Both EF2000 and Gripen are fully certified for NATO loadouts - Mirage and Rafale are not.

Bigger customer base on EF2000, and that will slide as more come on board. Rafale is an export orphan - and that means that the primary user or lead customer bears the burden of trying to hit the break even limit to reduce costs.

Gripen is a shorter ranging aircraft compared to the others you mention. Load it up for strike and the range reduces further - AAR then becomes an issue

M2K is generationally behind the EF, Grip and Rafale - why would anyone take a retrograde step when there are more network sympathetic and modern optimised options - especially with respect to LO.

Logistics issues.

Cross training issues - its far easier for Turkey to cross train with any of the consortia partners.


aaaditya said:
i remember reading in a flight magazine that the ef2000 would cost around 70 million dollars/aircraft,so that seems realy expensive.
You buy on requirements - cost is only one portion of the tender assessment matrix. The reality is that the EF2000 is more likely to dump prices as it already has sales and is set for greater volume customers way beyond existing Grip or Rafale opportunities.
 

Cyclop

New Member
I believe that Turkey wants a real capable fighter as Phantom replacement- no Mirage or Gripen. Something like Eurofighter, Rafale, Super Hornet, Su-XY (with western/israeli parts) or a F-15 variant. Between these aircraft, the Eurofighter has a really good standing. I don't think the Eurofighter has a bad capability-price ratio.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
considering that a F-16CJ cost at least 50 million per unit, 70 million isn't a lot for a far superior fighter like EF-2000.
 

Cyclop

New Member
Right, and if anyone believes that the F-35 JSF will be as "cheap" as a F-16CJ is a dreamer. Performance costs money.
I am from Austria. We had a competition between Eurofighter and Gripen (F-16 wasn't able to give a proper offer). The difference in the price for the whole system-package for 18 planes was 3% (best and final offer) - not very much, isn't it?
 

WarpDrive

New Member
The RFI was sent to the following companies:

1. Alenia for EF-2000 Eurofighter
2. Lockheed Martin for F-16 Block 60
3. Boeing for F-15T (something comparable to F-15K of Korea) and F-18 Super Hornet

Gripen or Rafael are out of question...

F-35 JSF will be acquired nevertheless.

It is most likely that the Typhoon will be the winner given that Turkey was offered to become the fifth partner in the Eurofighter consortium. Typhoon is already under negotiation between Turkey and Italy. Note that the baseline aircraft for Turkey is presently the Typhoon Tranche 2 Batch 8 aircraft.

Aviation Week & Space Technology
October 3, 2005
Pg. 39 Vol. 163 No. 13

EUrofighter Pitch;
Typhoon partners position to leverage Turkish interest in EU integration

Andy Nativi; Douglas Barrie, Robert Wall

Turkey is being offered full partnership in the Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft program.

With a Greek deal to purchase the Typhoon near moribund, Eurofighter is turning its attention to Athens' Aegean neighbor as it seeks export sales. Greece is expected to compete its fighter requirement once again; Typhoon had been provisionally selected. The likely re-bid is partly caused by funding problems with the original procurement.

Irrespective of Ankara's recent $1.1-billion investment in a Lockheed Martin F-16 upgrade program--and Turkey's interest in the F-35--industry executives involved with the Typhoon believe there is an opportunity for the aircraft. The tactic is to position the Typhoon as a complement, rather than a competitor, to the Joint Strike Fighter. Some Eurofighter partner nations (Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain) are being increasingly vocal in their support of Turkey's ambitions to join the European Union (EU). Last week, Jack Straw, Britain's foreign secretary, reiterated his support for Turkey's accession to the EU. Talks on the matter begin this week.

PARTICIPATION IN the program would give Turkey not only substantial manufacturing work, but also provide Turkish industry the opportunity to take part in possible further development of the aircraft. In addition to the technology transfer, Turkey would be given source-code software for the Typhoon's avionics and combat systems. This will allow the Turkish air force to customize the aircraft without recourse to the manufacturer--a long-standing issue regarding U.S. platforms.

A Turkish final assembly line, however, is seen by Eurofighter executives as unlikely, but would ultimately depend on how many aircraft are to be acquired.

The Eurofighter campaign in Turkey, being led by Alenia Aeronautica, is not being pursued as a direct attack on the F-35, but instead is supporting the rationale for a combination of both types.

Turkey is a Level III partner in the JSF program, and has a requirement for at least 120 F-35s, worth around $4 billion. At the same time, the air force's combat fleet is 450-strong, including more than 120 F-4/RF-4 Phantom IIs, half of which have been modernized by Israel Aircraft Industries. Alenia is pitching the Typhoon as a candidate to replace the F-4, and part of the F-16 fleet.

Eurofighter partners Britain and Italy already intend to field the F-35 and the Typhoon. For Italy, the primary role for the F-35 will be strike, with the Typhoon as an air dominance platform. Both, however, will be capable in either role.

Two Typhoon aircraft were on display at the International Defense Industry Fair held in Ankara Sept. 27-30. Senior military officers and politicians from the partner nations were also in attendance, including Italian Defense Minister Antonio Martino.

Turkish air force pilots have already flown the Typhoon, while visiting the Italian air force's Grosseto base. The baseline aircraft for Turkey is presently the Typhoon Tranche 2 Batch 8 aircraft. Funding procurement is not viewed as a hurdle. Ankara, after a prolonged period of curtailing defense spending, is now looking at military expenditure in part as a tool to model industrial development and growth. Turkey is spending about 3.3% of its gross domestic product on defense.

However, the Eurofighter partner nations continue to be hampered in the export arena by a still undefined weapons integration package for the core program.

The overarching Typhoon road map is now known as the Future Capability Program (FCP). The two key elements of this within the Tranche 2 production run were known as Enhanced Operational Capabilities 1 and 2, and have been renamed Enhancement Phases 1 and 2 (EP1 and EP2). Negotiations between the four partner nations are ongoing to finalize the air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons packages and integration priorities for EP1 and EP2. The aim is to have these decided by the year's end, and
contracted for by mid-2006. But progress is proving to be even slower than anticipated, and could result in target dates having to be realigned.

While the full air-to-surface package for Tranche 2 has yet to be agreed, at least one of the partner nations is pushing ahead with introduction of a ground attack capability. Britain is purchasing a batch of 20 Rafael Litening III laser designator pods for the Typhoon.

Robert Wall contributed to this report from Munich.

 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Cyclop said:
I believe that Turkey wants a real capable fighter as Phantom replacement- no Mirage or Gripen. Something like Eurofighter, Rafale, Super Hornet, Su-XY (with western/israeli parts) or a F-15 variant. Between these aircraft, the Eurofighter has a really good standing. I don't think the Eurofighter has a bad capability-price ratio.
I had a chat with a Turkish friend. He told me that Turkey is to replace F-4 & 5 with F-16s not with EF-2000 or JSF-35. The idea is to put the F-16s in the place of F-4 & 5 (give them same status & missions F-4 & 5s have) & put JSF & may be EF-2000 in the possition emptied by F-16s.

So its like throughing out 2 fighter jets, pushing one current front line fighter in the gap left by the two fighters & bring in new fighters to put them in possition left by the current front line fighter.

Hence Mirage & Gripen are not relevent purchase since Turkey already has F-16s to fill the gap of F-4s.

On the other hand Turkey maintains that it would keep upgrading phantoms for some time now.
 

Chowdhury

New Member
well the EF is a expensive jet

but the question is that if it is true then turkey buy s will they be able to maintain so big fleet of EF 70 to 100 is something

well lets wait and see

:rolleyes:
 

f2000

New Member
turkey want ac that newly born n have good future.rafale n gripen is produced by their country alone.eurofighter is a cooperation by europeans countries.
eurofighter has good future with producing of tranch 1,2 n 3.tranch 2 will be delivered in the near future.
with jsf is still not produced yet eurofighter is the best choice that they have.
:cool:
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Lets be honest, we can rule out Mirage/Rafale from the start.

When was the last time the Turkish military bought anything French in significant quantity?
 

Dr Phobus

New Member
The TAF can certainly afford the eurofigther, and in numbers, yes it already has a large airforce, however, like most AF's it willbe smaller, yet omre flexible and capable. All this talk about eurofigther being too exspensive for the TAF is rot. The TAF will have a 3 plane fleet, a good mix of ability and performance. Besides, do not hold your breath about F-35 being so cheap when it comes out, and also super-hornet is not exactly cheap either. The gripen, is not an overly capable plane.

:D
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Dr Phobus said:
The TAF can certainly afford the eurofigther, and in numbers, yes it already has a large airforce, however, like most AF's it willbe smaller, yet omre flexible and capable. All this talk about eurofigther being too exspensive for the TAF is rot. The TAF will have a 3 plane fleet, a good mix of ability and performance. Besides, do not hold your breath about F-35 being so cheap when it comes out, and also super-hornet is not exactly cheap either. The gripen, is not an overly capable plane.

:D

Just curious. What are the TANGIBLE differences between the Grippen and the Typhoon?
 
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