The Indian Tejas
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
- Status
vikas kanitkar
New Member
Its a serious effort to make a fighter plane indigenously. and except engine, india got success to make a high quality plane indigenously.
India always use good quality of battle equipments from past.
Kaveri engine is not yet developed fully. so india want good quality of engine from foreign source. and i hope india will definatly going to succede in all aspect of aerospace technology in future.
Your question is may be based on news of pakistan air force JF17 Fighter aircraft.
the question you asked "The Indian Tejas - a big dissapointment or a serious effort ?" well no offense to anybody but i desire to speak facts and my information is based on facts with reference...
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-lca.html
considering the project started in mid 1980s it has been almost 25 years but still the production line has not been started..
a great attempt to indigenously produce a decent 4th generation fighter.
Their original commitment was to...
1985: LCA launched with a time frame of 10 years.
indigenously produce radar and engine which they did not quite successfully achieve.
indian avionics but now due to technical faults, to some extent it is indian and have to integrate european and isreali tech.
here is some quotes by "indian defence" analysts. you decide of how far the LCA has reached and how capable it is..
Indians have boldly claimed that the "LCA has more advanced technology than JAS- 39 Gripen and as much advanced technology as the Typhoon." And if it does, then it needs to be proved on the ground and in flight.
"Stealth is an important feature for all new combat aircraft coming up. LCA does not have any stealth charactristics like in F-117 or F-22, but considering its small size, tail-less design and simple delta wing config, a GE-404 engine(atleast for now) - which is also used in the F-117 - it should be stealthier that atleast a MiG-21 or MiG-23/27. It is also expected that LCA will get DRDO developed Radar-absorbent paint. Composites are inherently stealthier than metal."
considering the fact that in 65 indo-pak war Gnats with a Length: 28 ft 8 in Wingspan: 22 ft 1 in, could still not be stealthy and considering primitive radars of that time they were able to pick them up easily. so how in the world is it even possible for LCA with larger Length: 43 ft 4 in Wingspan: 26 ft 11 in, be some what stealthier then Gnat or even stealthier??
nfloorl:
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-lca.html
considering the project started in mid 1980s it has been almost 25 years but still the production line has not been started..
a great attempt to indigenously produce a decent 4th generation fighter.
Their original commitment was to...
1985: LCA launched with a time frame of 10 years.
indigenously produce radar and engine which they did not quite successfully achieve.
indian avionics but now due to technical faults, to some extent it is indian and have to integrate european and isreali tech.
here is some quotes by "indian defence" analysts. you decide of how far the LCA has reached and how capable it is..
Indians have boldly claimed that the "LCA has more advanced technology than JAS- 39 Gripen and as much advanced technology as the Typhoon." And if it does, then it needs to be proved on the ground and in flight.
"Stealth is an important feature for all new combat aircraft coming up. LCA does not have any stealth charactristics like in F-117 or F-22, but considering its small size, tail-less design and simple delta wing config, a GE-404 engine(atleast for now) - which is also used in the F-117 - it should be stealthier that atleast a MiG-21 or MiG-23/27. It is also expected that LCA will get DRDO developed Radar-absorbent paint. Composites are inherently stealthier than metal."
considering the fact that in 65 indo-pak war Gnats with a Length: 28 ft 8 in Wingspan: 22 ft 1 in, could still not be stealthy and considering primitive radars of that time they were able to pick them up easily. so how in the world is it even possible for LCA with larger Length: 43 ft 4 in Wingspan: 26 ft 11 in, be some what stealthier then Gnat or even stealthier??
nfloorl:flawed design
.
a flawed design can only go thus far.
if the basic design of the plane is not sound, then it dosen't matter how advanced avionics u get from israel.
the wing-loading & service-ceiling of the tejas is horrible.
i just hope that the tejas gets an honourary & quiet burial like the trishul programme.
.
.
a flawed design can only go thus far.
if the basic design of the plane is not sound, then it dosen't matter how advanced avionics u get from israel.
the wing-loading & service-ceiling of the tejas is horrible.
i just hope that the tejas gets an honourary & quiet burial like the trishul programme.
.
well what you all think doesnt matter ,its what the user thinks that matters ,indian airforce is happy with the tejas ,though a bit dissatisfied with the delay in the development of the engine,they have already placed an order for the first batch of 40 aircrafts to be delivered from the year 2010,they also consider it to be comparable to the gripen but less expensive. so it does not care what nero or others think,they are still persisting with the plans to acquire upto 200 lca's even though many other aircrafts are available in the market and money is not the problem,they consider it to have superior handling qualities than even the mirage2000 of the indian airforce,the home base of the lca is to be sulur.
the initial batch is to equipped with the ge-f404-in20 engines having close to 85 kn thrust ,these will be replaced by the kaveri engine which is to be developed with the foreign assistance (safran a subsidiary of snecma of france and saturn are the front runners) ,also the first batch is to be equipped with the israeli elta el-m-2032 multi mode radar ,israel is also assisting india in developing the indigenous mmr ,the indigenous mmr is reportedly facing some problems in the air to ground mode,which is likely to be rectified by the end of this year . an indigenous aesa radar is in the early development stage ,israel has also offered its elta el-m-2052 aesa for the lca,though as of now indian airforce has not shown much interest in it.
israel is also jointly developing a self defence suite with india for the tejas,f-16i and the f-15,this suite is known as the mayavi(magician) ,the lca will have the dash helmet developed by israel.
if the indian airforce considered this project a waste of money or a failure ,they would never invest this much money and would spend it acquiring additional fighters,india has a requirement of at least 400 additional fighters of which 120 will be procured as per the mrca contract and the rest will be the lca's,indian navy is also interested in the lca and may acquire 40-60 aircrafts to arm its 2 indigenous aircraft carriers which have been sanctioned.
india has actually used the technology developed as part of the lca programme in the upgrade of the mig21bison and the mig27(project vetrivale),the su30mki and the darin jaguar.
the initial batch is to equipped with the ge-f404-in20 engines having close to 85 kn thrust ,these will be replaced by the kaveri engine which is to be developed with the foreign assistance (safran a subsidiary of snecma of france and saturn are the front runners) ,also the first batch is to be equipped with the israeli elta el-m-2032 multi mode radar ,israel is also assisting india in developing the indigenous mmr ,the indigenous mmr is reportedly facing some problems in the air to ground mode,which is likely to be rectified by the end of this year . an indigenous aesa radar is in the early development stage ,israel has also offered its elta el-m-2052 aesa for the lca,though as of now indian airforce has not shown much interest in it.
israel is also jointly developing a self defence suite with india for the tejas,f-16i and the f-15,this suite is known as the mayavi(magician) ,the lca will have the dash helmet developed by israel.
if the indian airforce considered this project a waste of money or a failure ,they would never invest this much money and would spend it acquiring additional fighters,india has a requirement of at least 400 additional fighters of which 120 will be procured as per the mrca contract and the rest will be the lca's,indian navy is also interested in the lca and may acquire 40-60 aircrafts to arm its 2 indigenous aircraft carriers which have been sanctioned.
india has actually used the technology developed as part of the lca programme in the upgrade of the mig21bison and the mig27(project vetrivale),the su30mki and the darin jaguar.
can you back up you statement about the lca's wing loading and service ceiling with the facts and figures ,we would be very intersted to know.
neither does the gripen have stealth ,the lca uses the highest percentage of composites in its structure when compared to any other aircraft (maybe with exception of the f22 and the f35) and composites reflect radar waves back lesser than the coventional metal alloys,india has also developed an indigenous radar absorbent material which is capable of reducing radar beam reflection by as much as 70% this is used currently on the darin jaguars(though iam not sure about the su30mki but of the ram's use in the jaguar iam sure).the question you asked "The Indian Tejas - a big dissapointment or a serious effort ?" well no offense to anybody but i desire to speak facts and my information is based on facts with reference...
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-lca.html
considering the project started in mid 1980s it has been almost 25 years but still the production line has not been started..
a great attempt to indigenously produce a decent 4th generation fighter.
Their original commitment was to...
1985: LCA launched with a time frame of 10 years.
indigenously produce radar and engine which they did not quite successfully achieve.
indian avionics but now due to technical faults, to some extent it is indian and have to integrate european and isreali tech.
here is some quotes by "indian defence" analysts. you decide of how far the LCA has reached and how capable it is..
Indians have boldly claimed that the "LCA has more advanced technology than JAS- 39 Gripen and as much advanced technology as the Typhoon." And if it does, then it needs to be proved on the ground and in flight.
"Stealth is an important feature for all new combat aircraft coming up. LCA does not have any stealth charactristics like in F-117 or F-22, but considering its small size, tail-less design and simple delta wing config, a GE-404 engine(atleast for now) - which is also used in the F-117 - it should be stealthier that atleast a MiG-21 or MiG-23/27. It is also expected that LCA will get DRDO developed Radar-absorbent paint. Composites are inherently stealthier than metal."
considering the fact that in 65 indo-pak war Gnats with a Length: 28 ft 8 in Wingspan: 22 ft 1 in, could still not be stealthy and considering primitive radars of that time they were able to pick them up easily. so how in the world is it even possible for LCA with larger Length: 43 ft 4 in Wingspan: 26 ft 11 in, be some what stealthier then Gnat or even stealthier??
oh please give me a break aaaditya! can you please back up your unworthy statement on LCA's rcs being reduced to 70% after a paint job? reference..
even if the LCA does get some what "stealthier" it wont make any difference because the amount of armaments the LCA is gonna carry will increase its RCS..
i dough that the indian stealth tech is gonna reduce LCA rcs by 70%!
The basic design of the plane itself is sound, simple straightforward with the proven advantages of the single delta layout coupled with vortice generation in the forward LERX. For its weight it seems to have a high wing area which mean very low wing loading, and this should help the plane's low speed handling (given the comments vs the M2000 on this).
But composite structure can bite. Just to let you know, there already has been a series of airliner accidents involving the delamination of composite in tail rudders and so on. Composite is unpredictable in the way it lasts under long term stress environments, and it requires studious inspection and maintenance. Throwing a lot of it in the start when you don't have previous recent fighter development experience is ambitious but risky. I think a lot of time were spent validating the composite structures and members.
But composite structure can bite. Just to let you know, there already has been a series of airliner accidents involving the delamination of composite in tail rudders and so on. Composite is unpredictable in the way it lasts under long term stress environments, and it requires studious inspection and maintenance. Throwing a lot of it in the start when you don't have previous recent fighter development experience is ambitious but risky. I think a lot of time were spent validating the composite structures and members.
sidewinder2006
New Member
You just wont stop scatological invective deleted ...right ????????????????
Next time you post anything in this respected forum......please for everybody's sake back up your comment with proper fact or a link to an trusty and respected article....
Otherwise stay away from this discussion !
-------------------------------------------------
Anyway,coming back to the topic, A question is lurking in my mind for last couple of days that how stealthy the tejas will be.
Obviously it wont be a f-35 or let alone f22... but still considering its very small size,streamlined design,extensive use of composites,some RAM treatment and planned heavy use of passive sensors..just how much stealthy it will be...
Say against a RDY or an APG 63 what is likely to be the detection range????
Mod edit: Text deleted due to use of scatological invectives. Members, please refrain from using foul language and/or profanity. If there is a disagreement or dislike between posters, then Ignore is an option. If there are questions on what is appropriate, please see the forum rules.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
-Preceptor
Last edited by a moderator:
Are you sure Indian airforce is investing money........ as far as world knows Airforce is very allergic to the LCA...aka Lost chance aircraft in airforce parlance
Could you start a thread with invitation next time, so that we can have meaningful discussion. One more advise to you( as you like giving ), why don't you stay in BR for an meaningful discussion.
-------------------------------------------------
Well as aaditya is telling all here its RCS reduced by 70% ...that means if a fighter aircraft of 3 square meter is detected at say 70 km, then LCA is invisible in BVR range
: . This is one of the reasan it is not bound to be visible for another 15 yearsnfloorl:sidewinder2006
New Member
hmmmmmmmm..it seems that either you are the same guy with a different login name or are brother in arms ...LoL ....just kidding !!!
I asked a question and I expect a real answer..not junks !
Hope you got that !!!!
I asked a question and I expect a real answer..not junks !
Hope you got that !!!!
take a look at my previous posts on this topic, and i think you will get the answer if you are open minded.
Gnat were way smaller then todays prototype LCA and still they were detected with in the same range as any other fighter jet of that time!
Since when stealth is related to size only? For that matter all WWII fighters were too detected by Radars existing at the time. Tejas is not a stealth design, it was not a design objective.
We all agree LCA is not stealth, but if we do accept that the favorite term of "45% composite by wieght and 90% by surface area" used for any situation- which also happens to decrease RCS the already small LCA by 70%. The LCA surely qualifies mention along with F-22 as stealthy.
:We all agree LCA is not stealth, but if we do accept that the favorite term of "45% composite by wieght and 90% by surface area" used for any situation- which also happens to decrease RCS the already small LCA by 70%. The LCA surely qualifies mention along with F-22 as stealthy.
The composite fraction figures are correct. It is done to reduce weight. An added benefit is reduced RCS to some extent, but not enough to make Tejas stealthy by any stretch of imagination.
i dont get on what you are trying to clarify me on... yes all world war II planes were detected?? and..
what i am trying to say is that i dough that LCA's RCS is gonna be reduced by 70%! that mean lets say if LCA's rcs is 3 square meters then reduced by 70% its gonna be like couple of square feet??
sidewinder2006
New Member
i dont get on what you are trying to clarify me on... yes all world war II planes were detected?? and..
what i am trying to say is that i dough that LCA's RCS is gonna be reduced by 70%! that mean lets say if LCA's rcs is 3 square meters then reduced by 70% its gonna be like couple of square feet??
Well you cant compare gnta and lca simply because they are of similar size....
In fact fighter design has advanced a lot (so did the raders ...I must agree ) but since the only option available to the gnats to avoid radar detection was to fly low I doubt the figures will be the same.
And when we are talking abouts lca's stealth we are obviously not expecting it to have similar stealth characteristics as f-35 but its a fact that it will be much more difficult to detect than other similar class but bigger in size fighters like say m2000 or f16,
But the question is how much ???????
BTW...can anybody tell me about the assumed "being detected" range of a f-16/m2000/gripen against modern radars like apg63/69 or zhuk me or even the mighty Bars??
thnx in advance
- Status