The European GWOT AIP Mod?

[Galrahn]

What do you make of this?

U-Boats Stalk Islamic Terrorists

Italy and Germany have each deployed one of their new Type 212 submarines to counter-terror duties in the Mediterranean. The boats in question, using their air-independent propulsion, can spend a week or more underwater, stalking transport ships suspected of participating in terrorist operations.

A new generation of non-nuclear submarines like the Russian Amur/Lama, the French Scorpene, and the German Type 212, have been entering service in the last few years. Unlike past non-nuclear submarines, which used diesel-electric plants, these new boats use fuel cells or other forms of air-independent propulsion. Germany commissioned its first Type 212 boat, using air-independent propulsion, two years ago. Four of these are being built. These are special boats, as they possess fuel cells (or AIP, Air Independent Propulsion) , which enable them to quietly operate underwater for weeks at a time. They still have diesel propulsion, but this is only used for surface travel. The 212s are also very quiet, quieter than most nuclear boats in service. This makes them an even match for a current nuclear boat equipped with better sensors. The 1,500 ton 212s are much smaller than nuclear boats (188 feet long, compared to 360 feet and 6,200 tons for the new U.S. Virginia class SSNs). The nuclear boats are used for a lot more than hunting other ships, and subs, while the 212s are mainly attack boats, and well designed and equipped for it.

While Germany is an American ally, their development of fuel cell technology for subs, and use of these boats in their own navy, are making this technology mature, and eventually available to many more nations. These 212 boats are, expensive (about half a billion dollars each), but that's less than a third the cost of a nuclear boats. The 212s are also highly automated, requiring a crew of only 27. But with six torpedo tubes, and a dozen torpedoes (plus anti-ship missiles, launched from the tubes, as well as mines), they could be, in the wrong hands, a major threat to the U.S. fleet. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to run (you don't need as many skilled sailors for the crew) and very lethal, American admirals are watching very closely who the Germans export these boats to.

Forget the AIP discussion, I think we have beat that discussion to death. The first paragraph is very interesting. Are we talking SOF here? Were any special mods made to focus the 212s for terrorism operations.

Kato or Contedicavour, you guys heard anything you can share about this?

 

[Waylander]

I am sure that Kato is much, much better informed about this but I just try to give a first comment.

Like the Flottendienstboote (spy ships, remember the Oste-Israeli clash?) operating in the med the subs are there for harvesting informations.
The ability to deploy SOFs was part of the design process but I doubt that any Kampfschwimmer (SEAL equivalent) are embarked on the U212As.

What should they be used for? Germany is defenitely not going to use them on the shores of Israel, Lebanon or Syria to gather informations or hunt down terrorists.

But that our subs and ELINT ships are good at gathering intelligence is shown in the fact that Israel rejected our request to add them to the UNIFIL fleet.
So we now operate them under OEF in the med...
And we know how the Israelis treated the Oste...

 

[gf0012-aust]

What do you make of this?

U-Boats Stalk Islamic Terrorists



Forget the AIP discussion, I think we have beat that discussion to death. The first paragraph is very interesting. Are we talking SOF here? Were any special mods made to focus the 212s for terrorism operations.

Thats no different to what some of the USN subs are currently doing - ie lurking and acting as benign pickets. eg, currently, USN subs pass on suspect details to the task force and they then decide to intercept etc... apparently they've been very useful at night as the average blockade runner or smuggler is clueless about their presence

 

[AGRA]

The Germans have been talking about fitting the recoilless RMK 30mm cannon to a submarine mast for use against these very threats.

 

[kato]

Kato or Contedicavour, you guys heard anything you can share about this?

What they actually mean is Operation Active Endeavour (not OEF, that's in the Indian Ocean).

Germany afaik currently has one U206A and one U212A (U18 and U33), as well as the A423 ELINT ship Oste in support of that mission in the Mediterranean. Oste is deployed "coincidentally" in such a way that it also provides ELINT support to UNIFIL forces.

The mission is not to "stalk terrorists", but for NATO to gain total surveillance over all naval movement in the Eastern Mediterranean - and more recently there has been talk about extending this to the entire Mediterranean. To that end, OAE has been expanded, with Russia and Ukraine now contributing ships since last month as well. Tasks within the OAE framework also include escort and boarding missions.

Operational use to my knowledge seems to be stealth surveillance with regular updates on "suspicious contacts" (that don't appear on the lists) to other units. Such "suspicious contacts" will then be checked closer at the latest upon entering Allied waters - that would probably include both Egypt and Cyprus - or MTF448 or TF150 theaters.

Oste can provide similar surveillance additionally for air targets, as she's fitted with a radar suite that closest compares to AAW ships.

The ability to deploy SOFs was part of the design process but I doubt that any Kampfschwimmer (SEAL equivalent) are embarked on the U212As.

Both U206A and U212A can employ SOF in limited operations - combat divers usually, or mine divers, depending on mission. The U212A class is a bit better equipped for this purpose.

edit - To expand on that:

The U212A class subs (Batch 1, U31 to U34) aren't specially prepared for SOF insertion. Combat divers, like on U206A, still deploy through the torpedo tubes, not exactly the most ... fun method. I've seen videos of it, and that makes about anyone claustrophobic. The Batch 2 subs (U35 to U36) that are currently under construction will fit a diver airlock for up to four men.

The recoilless cannon AGRA is talking about is a rather silly idea, and was discarded almost immediately. However, in Batch 2 subs, IDAS missiles will take on pretty much the same role (combined air/surface defense).

Oh, and to correct some other things in the strategypage post (i'm in the mood) - the U212A don't carry anti-ship missiles. Germany doesn't use sub-launched anti-ship missiles (such as UGM-84), and thus the necessary electronics for these aren't installed either. Their DM2A4 torpedoes have about twice the range of other, "regular" heavy guided torpedoes though. Oh, and the crew is 25, not 27

next edit:

One more thing: I wouldn't necessarily be so sure about no SOF troops aboard the U33. The sub is doing this mission as pretty much the big finish to its trials - first deployment - and officially performs some "maneuvers" in the Mediterranean. I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy is also performing some tests of the recon component of "Basis See" as part of this deployment (actually, the deployment is a implementation test of that concept component) - and deploying some combat swimmers in some shore recon mission can be part of such as well of course.

That said, it's not the first deployment of a U212A in OEA. U32 has also been down there before. And U34 will likely deploy early next year.

 

[Waylander]

Nah, OEF or OAE... bad mistake.

As for IDAS. Will it be ready for the second batch or will it be installed after the ships enter service.

I personally doubt that KS are emabrked on the sub all the time for getting after targets of opportunity.
They may well be part of last trials but a regular group of KS on it is not the case IMHO.

I wonder if the Nayve got some help from HDW like the signatures of the Israeli subs out there.

 

[kato]

As for IDAS. Will it be ready for the second batch or will it be installed after the ships enter service.

Well, they have 5 years until U35 will be delivered. Should be enough.

I wonder if the Nayve got some help from HDW like the signatures of the Israeli subs out there.

Maybe. After all, this has also been ongoing for five years really. They should have mapped out about anything floating around down there by now.

During those five years, NATO claims to have monitored 75,000 ships in the Mediterranean, boarded 100 suspect contacts, and escorted around 500 ships through the Straits of Gibraltar.

 

[Waylander]

Well, they have 5 years until U35 will be delivered. Should be enough.

Nah, you know the ususal things which could happen...

Maybe. After all, this has also been ongoing for five years really. They should have mapped out about anything floating around down there by now.

During those five years, NATO claims to have monitored 75,000 ships in the Mediterranean, boarded 100 suspect contacts, and escorted around 500 ships through the Straits of Gibraltar.

I just remembered the rumours of Israeli subs operating very close to our ships there. I would think that the Israeli subs frequently stalk our ships (and the ones of other nations) out there.

It was more a general question. Does HDW (Or other shipbuilders) gives away exact signatures and other data about the ships they export? I would think this is normal procedure but one never knows.

 

[kato]

It was more a general question. Does HDW (Or other shipbuilders) gives away exact signatures and other data about the ships they export? I would think this is normal procedure but one never knows.

The question would be who would they give it to

I still remember that little row for the Kosovo War about which intelligence agency would be responsible for covert operations in Yugoslavia, between MAD, VS, BND, and Military Recon. Someone outside HDW would probably have the data they need

 

[Galrahn]

Thanks Kato, good stuff here.

 

[Galrahn]

Is the Italian design the same, or does it have mods?

Also, do the U212s carry any type of external storage like the US nukes?

 

[kato]

Is the Italian design the same, or does it have mods?

Also, do the U212s carry any type of external storage like the US nukes?

Supposedly some minor differences exist between German and Italian subs in the navigation console, as well as in the periscope.
The original 212 design was modified to fit Italian requirements as well, and redesignated 212A. Both German and Italian subs were then built according to 212A design. One of the additional Italian requirements for example was the rather high depth capability (destruction depth at 700m supposedly).

Afaik, the 212A can't carry external loads (like mines), at least not in current configuration. The older 206A can carry 24 mines externally.

I'm not sure, but i'd assume external loads would be rather detrimental to some signature reduction measures in the 212A. The hull consists of the same amagnetic steel as in the older 206A, but is additionally planked with anechoic tiles. Plus, there are coils spread throughout the subs which are supposed to counter magnetic anomaly detectors - not sure if those wouldn't have to be switched off for safety reasons.