The current state of modern day Piracy and Somalia.

[Eeshaan]

Update : Australian SASR in Africa :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-forces-gathering-intelligence-in-Africa.html

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/03/australian-commandos-operating-in-kenya/

U.S. commandos free two hostages in daring Somalia raid | Reuters

The Navy Seals strike another blow against Somali criminal elements/pirates.

RFI - Somali pirates mistakenly attack French navy ship

That's a mistake Navies would want pirates to commit more often.

France tries six Somali 'pirates' in landmark case - France - FRANCE 24

Pirates who hijacked a Yatch were thwarted by the French Special Forces, One has been aquitted. The rest( 5 ) face life sentences.

These are some pieces of good news in the rather turbulent part of the Western Indian Ocean. With Al-Shabab's power on the rise, and more Somalis turning to Piracy as an occupation, should more resources and manpower be allocated to the region to stamp out this threat ?

I believe our nations should show a little more initiative here, turn some of their attention from major hot-zones like Afghanistan and the middle east to increase the manpower and resources meant for fighting Piracy. A larger naval presence is what the eastern coast of Africa needs.

A stronger land presence and initiative is also required in Somalia, to assist Ethiopian troops in battling Al-Quaeda backed Al-Shabab rebels and restoring whatever little bit of democracy remains in that war-torn nation. The zone is simply not recieving the attention that it should, by the international community, IMHO.

Then there's also the question of Direct Intervention or indirect assistance being provided to the embattled nations...

 

[My2Cents]

Law is the problem

The lawyers are going to force the US and EU navies to release a bunch of pirates pretty quick if something isn't done to get a working law enforcement system in place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/africa/seized-pirates-in-legal-limbo-with-no-formula-for-trials.html?_r=1&ref=world

Then things will just get worse if the pirates figure they can't be punished, unless they mess with the Russians or the Chinese.

 

[Eeshaan]

The lawyers are going to force the US and EU navies to release a bunch of pirates pretty quick if something isn't done to get a working law enforcement system in place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/africa/seized-pirates-in-legal-limbo-with-no-formula-for-trials.html?_r=1&ref=world

Then things will just get worse if the pirates figure they can't be punished, unless they mess with the Russians or the Chinese.

More like a Lack of law. In the places that these pirates function, it's essentially no man's land ( or sea ). If you have an assault rifle in your hands, you have all the right in the world to defend yourself against attacks from Pirates. What will they do, sue you for opening fire on them ?

That zone is a lawless zone, ruled by warlords & thugs. Would only help if the navies in the area did go slightly "off the reservation" in dealing with pirates like the Russians, Chinese & Indians. They need to know that the authorities wont just stand there turning the pages of the law book while they rampage through the seas with impunity.

Another question. Tactically, is using "bait" against pirates a viable strategy ? The Somme was mastaken as a commercial vessel, and as a result the pirates paid a hefty price for it.

Is it viable to use unmarked commercial vessels fully manned with armed soldiers/navy personnel to bait the pirates into attacking them ? Lulling pirates into thinking a vessel is full of harmless sailors till they get so close that it's too late does sound interesting on paper I know this trojan horse strategy sounds a bit ridiculous and is more of a war tactic than a law enforcement one, but this question did come to my mind, so thought i'd clear it out with you guys...

 

[My2Cents]

More like a Lack of law. In the places that these pirates function, it's essentially no man's land ( or sea ). If you have an assault rifle in your hands, you have all the right in the world to defend yourself against attacks from Pirates. What will they do, sue you for opening fire on them?

Criminals have done it and won in US courts, though most were overturned on appeal. My favorite was the man who sued his neighbor for driving over his hand while he was trying to steal the guy’s hubcaps.

That zone is a lawless zone, ruled by warlords & thugs. Would only help if the navies in the area did go slightly "off the reservation" in dealing with pirates like the Russians, Chinese & Indians. They need to know that the authorities wont just stand there turning the pages of the law book while they rampage through the seas with impunity.

The big problem is that the international laws used to deal with piracy were revoked following WWII, creating a legal limbo in which law abiding nations are powerless to act. What is needed most is to reestablish the status of piracy as hostis humani generis (Latin for "enemy of mankind") and give formal naval units the necessary legal tools and jurisdiction to carry out arrests, followed by a rapid trial and punishment at sea.

The later part, punishment at sea, is particularly important to prevent a process of hostage taking and exchange for captured pirates from being instituted. The EU and humanitarian groups may object, but given their historic total lack of success in dealing with pirates, this outlook should be considered discredited at this time.

Another question. Tactically, is using "bait" against pirates a viable strategy ? The Somme was mastaken as a commercial vessel, and as a result the pirates paid a hefty price for it.

Nothing new. The pirates have accidentally been attack military vessels, especially support vessels, once or twice a year on average.

Is it viable to use unmarked commercial vessels fully manned with armed soldiers/navy personnel to bait the pirates into attacking them ? Lulling pirates into thinking a vessel is full of harmless sailors till they get so close that it's too late does sound interesting on paper I know this trojan horse strategy sounds a bit ridiculous and is more of a war tactic than a law enforcement one, but this question did come to my mind, so thought i'd clear it out with you guys...

Not really. These are two of the world’s busier sea lanes. The percentage of commercial vessels that have a pirate pursuit initiated on them is only 2% or 3%, and less than ¼ of those result in an attempt to board. The chance of one of your vessels being approached and attacked is just too low. Besides, in the last 2 years most of the big pirate captures have been farther out where people have not been expecting them, increasing the area that has to be patrolled over 10 fold.

 

[Eeshaan]

Thanks for the info there. The law in these areas are a bit difficult for the authorities at times.

In the waters of liberia & Sierra Leone it is completely forbidden and illegal for ANY vessel to carry even a single firearm, as a UN mandate. This makes things ridiculously hard for even law enforcement to carry out anti piracy and maritime protection in those zones...

 

[Cailet]

Of course, none of the violent solutions are going to work (short of genocide) without some real work done on giving the people of Somalia a shot at a better future through law-abiding means.

When the Romans ended piracy in the Mediterranean they did it by giving the pirates land to farm as well as by killing them in battle. The Somalian pirates are subsistence fishermen (unable to compete with commercial trawlers in the same waters) and other such with no rule but the gun and no profit to be found without stealing it from someone else. No amount of high explosives and Jack Bauer fantasies will change that.

I'm not condoning piracy here but for as long as it remains a viable option then it's like drug dealers in the West, there's profit to be had and any number of people are willing to risk it because it beats any other option and the bosses don't care as long as they get their cut.

 

[Smokin' Joe]

Cailet has a great point. The problem is not solved by "busting" pirates as much as it would be by improving Somalia. Some of these pirates started out by saying that they were the new Coast Guard of Somalia by stopping the mass amounts of fishing vessels that came into the Somalian waters after the collapse of the government. They spread the wealth of any ransom they collect and were heros by the people of Somalia which is why there wasn't an outcry for them to be stopped. It got a little out of hand though when they started leaving Somalian waters and hijacking cargo ships. Their cause is just but their way of going about it breaks the norms of our countries and we see them as villians. Some industries have taken advantage of Somalia and the sooner they form a stable government the sooner they can take care of themselves and stop piracy.

 

[My2Cents]

The problem is not solved by "busting" pirates as much as it would be by improving Somalia. Some of these pirates started out by saying that they were the new Coast Guard of Somalia by stopping the mass amounts of fishing vessels that came into the Somalian waters after the collapse of the government. They spread the wealth of any ransom they collect and were heros by the people of Somalia which is why there wasn't an outcry for them to be stopped. It got a little out of hand though when they started leaving Somalian waters and hijacking cargo ships. Their cause is just but their way of going about it breaks the norms of our countries and we see them as villians.

The Somalis need honest government more than stable government.

The Coast Guard to keep out illegal fishing vessels (which are gone already from Somali waters because of the pirates) and pirates, for example, is supposed to by a transit fee on vessels passing through Somali waters. The fee is being collected by the international force and paid to the Somali government (TFG), which steals it, insist that they have no money to maintain the Coast Guard (the international community has donated the necessary vessels, at least 1 of which has been sold to the pirates) The TFG refuses to allow the international force to operate in Somali waters because patrolling it would be done by the Somali Coast guard, if the TFG were just given enough money.

Some industries have taken advantage of Somalia and the sooner they form a stable government the sooner they can take care of themselves and stop piracy.

Industries form a government? That is a recipe for abuse. The tribes wouldn’t stand for it anyway.

They did a poll in Somalia not long after the Battle of Mogadishu, asking the Somalis if they wanted peace, all of them said yes. Then they asked them if they would be willing to share power with any of the other tribes, and the answer was ‘With those murders and thieves? I’ll die first.’ Somali’s perceive a legitimate government as their family and clan on top and everyone else subordinate, slaves, or exterminated, and are willing to fight everyone for it.

Somali’s have a proverb that goes

Me and my country against the world
Me and my clan against my country
Me and my family against my clan
Me and my brother against my family
Me​

The only solution for Somalia is a 3rd party to come in with enough force to smash the clan militias, preferably without negotiating with them first, set up a fairly honest government run by non-Somalis (not the UN, their record at honest governing is execrable), and enforce a peace with an iron hand. The government could then be handed slowly back to the Somalis, with care taken to prevent any one clan amassing power over any of the others, over the next 40-60 years, giving time for a whole new set of tribal elders to come into place. Yes, it is a return to colonial rule, but is the only thing that might actually work.
:duel

 

[Smokin' Joe]

I think you misunderstood me a bit, but I totally agree with you. I would totally agree with the honest government part. I guess I could have chosen those words a little differently.

Quoting my previous statement:

"Some industries have taken advantage of Somalia and the sooner they form a stable government the sooner they can take care of themselves and stop piracy."

That was just bad English, not actually meaning that industries should set up the government, but once again going back to a solid (honest) government that could stop industries from taking advantage of Somalia (Fishing & Dumping). Sorry for the confusion.

I am not saying that the pirates are right, just that "law enforcement" governments aren't really fixing the problem with the current way of doing things.

 

[Eeshaan]

Of course, none of the violent solutions are going to work (short of genocide) without some real work done on giving the people of Somalia a shot at a better future through law-abiding means.

When the Romans ended piracy in the Mediterranean they did it by giving the pirates land to farm as well as by killing them in battle. The Somalian pirates are subsistence fishermen (unable to compete with commercial trawlers in the same waters) and other such with no rule but the gun and no profit to be found without stealing it from someone else. No amount of high explosives and Jack Bauer fantasies will change that.

I'm not condoning piracy here but for as long as it remains a viable option then it's like drug dealers in the West, there's profit to be had and any number of people are willing to risk it because it beats any other option and the bosses don't care as long as they get their cut.

Well you have to look at he state of the LAND itself. It's not a very natural resource-rich country. There aren't any diamond mines like in Western Africa. Infrastructure is almost non-existant. Whatever existed of the agricultural economy is now in shambles due to extremely harsh draughts & constant warfare.

So where do they get the economy and infrastructure to even begin rebuilding a nation ? What would the former pirates do when given barren pieces of land with no economic potential whatsoever ? How is something so vital to any nation's economy such as employement going to be generated ?

That IMHO is the issue with Somalia. How do you make a prosperous or even legitimate nation out of a piece of land that has hardly any potential for anything other than war ?

I would recommend you guys to read the following books :

Battle Ready by Tom Clancy & Gen.Tony Zinni.

Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden

Masters of Chaos by Linda Robetson.

These books can shed quite a bit of light on not only the hardships that the Somali people face, but the very mindset of your average Somali joe himself...

 

[Smokin' Joe]

Good view and I will have to check out a couple of those books. I recently wrote a college paper on some of the piracy happening there. Why couldn't you have given these references earlier?

 

[ProM]

The trouble is not that there aren't laws under which pirates can be tried there are. The trouble is the the west (Europe in particular) fears bringing these pirates back to their own shores, and after the pirates have been tried (and punished if appropriate) them claiming asylum because they would be at risk if sent back.

 

[Eeshaan]

A small request to mods : Would appreciate if if you could move this topic to the Geo-Strategic Defense forum, and rename the topic "General African conflict and Piracy Discussion", please.

Thanks.

 

[My2Cents]

A small request to mods : Would appreciate if if you could move this topic to the Geo-Strategic Defense forum, and rename the topic "General African conflict and Piracy Discussion", please.

Why not just start a thread there called "General African conflict Discussion" yourself?

It is simpler and there is no need to hijack a thread dedicated to Somali piracy

 

[Eeshaan]

Why not just start a thread there called "General African conflict Discussion" yourself?

It is simpler and there is no need to hijack a thread dedicated to Somali piracy

Good idea, I just thought of including all African piracy and Africa-related articles in a single thread.