The Biggest Gun Ever Built

contedicavour

New Member
A madman's idea... even in WW2 the key to victory was highly mobile units with big firepower. Guns based on rail tracks, heavily vulnerable to air bombardment, and inaccurate because of the sheer weight of its ammunition were totally useless, unless perhaps for some psychological effect when laying siege to enemy cities such as Leningrad/St Petersburg in 1941.

cheers
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Contedicavour,

>>
A madman's idea... even in WW2 the key to victory was highly mobile units with big firepower.
>>

The key to victory was not vesting an outnumbered shock force 1,500 miles from their logistics head into MOUT combat where they could in turn be further encircled. That said, the gun actually supported such siege operations quite well with an average of only 7-8 shells needed to obliterate any fixed target. Compare this to the 30,000 /tons/ of conventional artillery necessary to 'lose' Sevastopol as a shattered ruin anyway.

Bypass and Maneuver. In this, a heavy rail gun can still actually be made quite useful IF it is designed along the lines of the Paris Gun, firing lightweight shells into enemy marshalling areas far enough back that the enemy has a hard time locating it (The Russians rarely pushed their tacair further than 20-40nm as BAI behind the FEBA and almost /never/ used it adequately against the German rail LOCs as a function of true Interdiction) as a function of light weight, low wear, fairly high rate _terror weapons_.

Yes, terror is a valid technique against military formations. Especially Soviet ones in which 'force security' was a gun at the back until it was too late to fear a greater threat in front.

>>
Guns based on rail tracks, heavily vulnerable to air bombardment, and inaccurate because of the sheer weight of its ammunition were totally useless, unless perhaps for some psychological effect when laying siege to enemy cities such as Leningrad/St Petersburg in 1941.
>>

The key to understanding the utility and restrictions of a supergun lies not in it's use as a landbased weapon but as a naval one. TONS of metal was utterly wasted armoring discrete features (turrets and superstructure and subdecks) on the battleships. NONE of their rounds could guarantee kills on some of the harder targets while paradoxically NONE of the armor was sufficient to protect them against either a (Hood) 'lucky hit' or concentrated airpower (1,500-2,000lb bombs crippled the Tirpitz long before 12,000lb ones sank her).

Furthermore, ALL of them lacked the firing rate to saturate even fixed landwards positions 'better' than a single bore in the 50-80mm range could have with proper (big ship=big rams) automation and double the landbased 14 rounds a day worth of precision targeted fires.

With massively better fixed land target effects and probably /similar/ straddle-to-impact achieved naval damage rates* using just 1-2 longitudinal bores; a supergun battlewagon could have truly altered tactical pictures by literally opening up wide, undefended, frontages in support of either an Overlord/Iwo type mission set (the enemy cannot defend a key point which has had all surrounding defensible/elevated terrain features _collapsed_ by overcratering and subsidization) at vastly less risk to the ship from beachhead mines or coastal artillery. Or by making events like the IJN attacks at Samar and Leyte less likely to be effective for want of much longer opening engagement ranges and much greater risk to IJN surface assets trying to disengage.

The key to which then becomes getting ONE round to fall where you want it to and while the availability of microelectronics able to withstand 20,000G launch excursions might have been a problem in the tube age, there is reason to think that a Hawaii type radio-CG reference beam for 'tipover and azimuth' might have been able to moderate a generalized parabola sufficient to be useful on even point targets from over 30nm away.

Given the Gustav averaged 190m CEP and maxed out at 60m with 20% of it's fall of shell, while the HE round had a 300ft lethal splash zone, you are looking at the ability to destroy entire city blocks or indeed enemy armor formations and even (unarmored) ships with near misses and few rounds.

Better by far to fire one round that hits before your enemy can even see you than 'exchange' dozens which dare him to cripple you slowly before scoring a lucky magazine hit which blows you in two.

Something which a spotter plane and a large RFCG array (for the Germans probably a Mammut or Freya) could have ensured with relative ease while remaining well over the horizon.

Thus, given that Hitler may have indeed been mad, the supergun missed it's true calling in application as much as 'bigger than you' intent.

Today, such a gun would be mounted on a container or VLCC type hull with precision stationkeeping shunt motors able to accomodate a 100m barrel run and undoubtedly use light gas or V3 type 'staged' technology (with the option to upgrade to EML) plus GPS/INS to loft much smaller rounds (7-8 inch ala HARP) upwards of 300-400nm inland.

In 100-200mm class, even with a restriction of one round every 10-15 minutes, this would make it vastly superior to the CVSF and indeed competitive with aeroballistics as a replacement for subsonic cruise and the 'arsenal concept' as another money pit.

It is for that very reason that it will never be built because cheap, effective, weapons are anethema to the established MIB multi-element golf bag $olution.


KPl.


*The Sevastopol attacks on the White Cliff bunker under 30m of water with 10m of concrete below that succeeded after less than 9 rounds of which 'near misses' capsized light vessels half a mile away in the bay.

With a superquick fuze or even a mechanical extender, 'air bursts' should do blast damage, even to larger/armored naval classes if they strike within one quarter hull length. On a BB that's on the order of a 200ft allowable miss distance. If you can straddle, serious hydraulic damage also becomes a conditional effect.
 

stryker NZ

New Member
I thought Project Babylon was the biggest... yes Dora was real.

yes Babylon was the biggest that was the one that was designed to shoot shells into orbit wasnt it? although in saying that Babylon was never operational and has been considered i hoax.
 

merocaine

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
arti was incredibly accurate in WW2 (and 1), I'm sure they would have been able to drop there shells within 20 meters of the target with the first round.
How accurate a first shot could an equivelent modern gun have.
As an alternative to say a cruise missle, one of those shells would be impossible to shoot down, which would have certain advantages in a first strike.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
Here is the Paris Gun of WW1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Gun

It was capable of hurling a 94-kilogram (210 lb) shell to a range of 130 kilometres (81 mi) and a maximum altitude of 40 km (20 mi).

How about the V-3 cannon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon

The guns, with a barrel length of about 120 m, were the largest Axis artillery pieces.

The HARP project, makes sad reading. Jealousies and pettiness of politicians abound.

http://www.astronautix.com/articles/abroject.htm

Using an old U.S. Navy 16 inch (406 mm) 50 caliber gun (20 m), later extended to 100 caliber (40 m), the team was able to fire a 180 kilogram slug at 3600 meters per second, reaching an altitude of 180 kilometers.

Amazing engineering feats for their times. In the example at the opening of this topic, note the extensive rifling of that 800mm barrel. With the Paris gun each subsequent shell fired had to a little larger than the previous due to barrel wear. When it comes to wartime research, amazing advances can be made.
 

.pt

New Member
A little off topic, but here goes,

Just saw a documentary in the History channel, in wich there was a contest for old artillery pieces (US civil war vintage) somewhere in US. After a few rounds, the winning team had the oportunity to compete with a military artillery team.
This was a Canadian Army unit, and the team was a competition winner, and recently returned from deployment in A-Stan. Their gun was a french light gun (model and caliber unknown, but not a very large gun) and in the competition it lost to a artillery piece +100 years older!!!
Even with laser sights and ranging, and all the time in the world to calculate the shot it lost. I was dumbfounded, and lost some respect for these systems.
The winning competitor was a family team wich produces their own ammo and charges, and are very skilled at their art.
So, man still makes a difference, as well as guns.
.pt
 

merocaine

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
I saw the same doc, it was pretty cool, but to be fair, the civil war piece was more like a big rifle with a very flat trajectory, where the modern arti was using plunging fire. But when the civil war cannon scored a direct hit with its first shot the look on that soldiers face was priceless!
 

TrangleC

New Member
As far as i know the 800 mm guns were originally build as main weapons for the planned super battleships (with 500m twice as long as the Tirpiz-Klass with 800mm guns). When Hitler decided not to build those ships they had the already produced guns laying around and put them to a use in the Dora railway guns.
So the question whether such a weapon made sense or not is not so easy to answer. It surely made more sense to recycle the guns than to have them rost away in some shipyard storage.
 

SATAN

New Member
The Babylon was the Biggest gun designed for Saddam by Dr.Gerald Bull in the 1980's. It had a range of 200kms and could shoot projectiles and Chemical/Biological warheads in a FIXED direction. (Tehran /Tel Aviv) Dr.Bull was also building satellite launchers for China also based on the Big Bertha super gun. Unfortunately Dr.Bull was murdered by Israel's MOSSAD in his own apartment ,shot 4 times and left with $20,000 in his coat pocket to show that he had been killed for political reasons.

He did build the baby Babylon gun and completed it for Saddam which had a much smaller range.
 

turin

New Member
As far as i know the 800 mm guns were originally build as main weapons for the planned super battleships (with 500m twice as long as the Tirpiz-Klass with 800mm guns). When Hitler decided not to build those ships they had the already produced guns laying around and put them to a use in the Dora railway guns.
No, the Dora and Gustav Guns were dedicated land-based artillery guns and in no way related to naval guns. They were planned from the beginning to be ultra heavy artillery pieces to be used from fixed installations against enemy lines like the Maginot fortifications. They were transportable by train, however in a quite limited way.

The H-class battleships you are referring to were planned with a different armament. In the beginning their main armament was similar to the Iowa-class and other modern battleship classes, meaning 16 inch, however the last modifications included 20 inch guns. The 16 inch guns were actually produced and when it was clear that the related ship would never be operational, they were placed in coastal fortifications in France and Norway.
 

TrangleC

New Member
Well, then 2 books i had were wrong about this.
One of them even went a bit into the details and said the first 800mm railway gun was build just as a testing device to measure the recoil and accuracy for the use on this super-battleships.

And i'm not talking about the H-class ships. They were only sligly bigger than the Tirpiz-class (250m) with 275m or something like that. There were plans for super battleships with a length of 500m. If i recall it right, they were called "project B", but i'm not sure.
Would be rather ridiculous to arm a ship of this size with 16 inch guns.
 

turin

New Member
Well, then 2 books i had were wrong about this.
One of them even went a bit into the details and said the first 800mm railway gun was build just as a testing device to measure the recoil and accuracy for the use on this super-battleships.

And i'm not talking about the H-class ships. They were only sligly bigger than the Tirpiz-class (250m) with 275m or something like that. There were plans for super battleships with a length of 500m. If i recall it right, they were called "project B", but i'm not sure.
Would be rather ridiculous to arm a ship of this size with 16 inch guns.
I suggest you read some additional books then, because the information given is not correct in a variety of ways.

I am using Breyer, "Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905 - 1970" which is somewhat like the very basic reference on the issue in german and is generally considered as being credible by scientific obervers. The information given is further supported by a very wide range of literature on the issue, in german for example Duelffer, "Hitler, Weimar und die Marine. Reichspolitik und Flottenbau 1920-1939".

All components of the Z-plan and follow-on-projects are listed there. I dont know of any Battleship-"Projekt B", indeed the choice of this letter makes no sense, since the second aircraft carrier after "Graf Zeppelin" was designated "B" during plannings. Further projects were O-class, P-class and M-class, amongst projects with different designations using no letters.

Your information about the H-class is insufficient as well. There was one initial H-class, including six units. The follow-on-studies included projects H-41 to H-44. The last version featured a displacement of more than 120,000 tons and a total length of 330 m. No further studies were started because of the political and military situation at the time.

The procurement of the Dora gun was organised by the Heereswaffenamt for the german army. No navy involvement existed at any given time, which is a bit strange if this was supposed to be the precursor of a naval gun.

Also the order of Hitler himself was for an ultra heavy army gun, to be deployed against the Maginot and Gibraltar fortifications. This order was given in 1937, the H-class was planned only in 1938 with the initial 16 inch guns, so I wonder when the plannings for these other battleships should have taken place, when they were already going into R&D for the guns?!

The primary motivation behind Dora and Gustav was the historical experience from World War I, where german forces faced heavy attrition by fighting against enemy fortifications. Hitler himself was a witness of that since he served on the western front, therefore his order makes sense from his personal point of view (if not from a tactical perspective).

Literature in english on the issue you might want to check is
Hogg, Ian, "German Artillery of World War Two", which can be considered a classic in its on right and offers credible information.
 

miket

New Member
yes Babylon was the biggest that was the one that was designed to shoot shells into orbit wasnt it? although in saying that Babylon was never operational and has been considered i hoax.
British customs around 97-98 not sure exact year seized parts supposidly for the babylon guns. You never know they could have been oil pipes.
 

Manfred

New Member
No, they were NOT oil pipes, that was the cover story. The gun barrel sections were called super-high pressure pipes, but a blind five year old could have seen through that... which might explain why they almost made it past British customs.
 

miket

New Member
The Babylon was the Biggest gun designed for Saddam by Dr.Gerald Bull in the 1980's. It had a range of 200kms and could shoot projectiles and Chemical/Biological warheads in a FIXED direction. (Tehran /Tel Aviv) Dr.Bull was also building satellite launchers for China also based on the Big Bertha super gun. Unfortunately Dr.Bull was murdered by Israel's MOSSAD in his own apartment ,shot 4 times and left with $20,000 in his coat pocket to show that he had been killed for political reasons.

He did build the baby Babylon gun and completed it for Saddam which had a much smaller range.
Was'nt Ball trying to sell the same gun to US military. He had firing a range in Canada not far from US border if I remember correctly.
 

turin

New Member
Was'nt Ball trying to sell the same gun to US military. He had firing a range in Canada not far from US border if I remember correctly.
From what I read about the whole issue, his project was very impractical in terms of a military weapon. For cheap launching of satellites into space on the other hand his work might have been promising, depending on some technical parameters.

Anyway, the system was never completed, let alone functional/operational, so I really wouldnt consider it "the biggest gun ever built".
 
Top