Terroristic attacks in Austria.

[Sandhi Yudha]

A chain of 6 shootings happened a couple of hours ago in Wien, the capital of Austria.
At least one person is killed and 15 injured, including one police officer.
There are multiple shooters, and one is shot dead by the police. Many things are not yet clear, and the situation is still chaotic.

Ticker-Nachlese: Vier Tote und 22 Verletzte

Das der Polizei vorliegende Videomaterial lässt auf einen Einzeltäter schließen. Er tötete vier Menschen, darunter eine Deutsche. Bis das gesamte Material ausgewertet wurde, gilt erhöhte...

www.diepresse.com

Twee doden en gewonden bij aanslag Wenen, schoten op zes verschillende plekken

De politie meldt dat er ook een dader is doodgeschoten. Inwoners van Wenen krijgen het advies binnen te blijven.

nos.nl

 

[OPSSG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323390339856670721

Europe is once again under attack. 6 different locations, multiple victims and injured. it was France, today Austria. Below is list of attacks in UK and Europe for the last 2 years:

On 29 Oct 2020, Brahim Aouissaoui entered the Notre Dame de l’Assomption basilica, to carry out an attack that left Nadine Devillers, Vincent Loquès, dead and Simone Barreto Silva, with fatal injuries.​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1321783835797970944

​

16 Oct 2020 - French school teacher Samuel Paty is beheaded in a Paris suburb. Paty had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a class on freedom of expression. Police shot dead the 18-year-old attacker of Chechen origin.​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323452864635703299

​

29 Nov 2019 - British police shoot dead a man wearing a fake suicide vest who stabbed two people to death in London and wounded three more before being wrestled to the ground by bystanders, in what the authorities called a terrorist attack.​

​

7 Apr 2018 - A man drives a van into a group of people sitting outside a restaurant in the old city centre of Muenster in Germany, killing several of them before taking his own life, police say.​

​

23 Mar 2018 - A gunman kills three people in southwestern France after holding up a car, firing on police and taking hostages in a supermarket, screaming "Allahu Akbar". Security forces storm the building and kill him.​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323400907195879424

Deeply shocked by the awful terror attacks at 6 sites in Austria. While the situation remains fluid and details of the attack are still not clear, it seems to be a fedayeen attack.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323402917391585282

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Deeply shocked by the awful terror attacks at 6 sites in Austria. While the situation remains fluid and details of the attack are still not clear, it seems to be a fedayeen attack.

With "fedayeen" you mean islamist/jihadist?
This word reminds me more of the Fedayiin Saddam unit, but that was disbanded in 2003.

 

[OPSSG]

With "fedayeen" you mean islamist/jihadist?

Like the 2008 Mumbai Fedayeen Attack, this is a roving suicide attackers, using infantry small squad tactics. The city is effectively shut down as these jihadist attackers keep moving until their last stand. In the case of Vienna, I am waiting confirmation on the targets, motives and religion of these attackers.

Vienna City Hospital chief has spoken to Austrian broadcaster ORF. He says 15 people have been injured in the attack, either hurt in the shooting or while fighting.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323418253318901762

According to the information provided by the crisis team to the ORF, a suspected perpetrator shot was wearing an explosives belt. This is currently being defused. He is also said to have carried a lot of ammunition with him. Thus far, 2 civilians and 1 attacker has died.

Don't help terrorists by spreading their terror; while the attack is ongoing. Help the police achieve an all clear situation, instead. Below are clear instructions on how to provide videos to a secure website (for intelligence and evidence gathering).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323364760260411392

Austrian Interior Minister says there are a number of injured and a number of dead. At least one attacker still on the run, asks everyone to remain home until situation is ended and the terrorist caught.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323373507699494917

 

[OPSSG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323437630361686017

Mayor Michael Ludwig said one was killed and another 15 people had been wounded, 7 of them seriously. One woman died from her injuries in hospital, he added, while the other victim was killed at the scene of one of the shootings. A police officer was among the injured, the interior ministry said. See: Vienna 'terror' attack - BBC News

The City of Vienna has also tweeted confirming that children do not need to attend school tomorrow, after it was announced in the police press conference a short while ago. “Due to the current situation, there will be no compulsory education in Vienna tomorrow. Children can therefore stay at home, excused. For all those for whom this is not possible, the schools are of course open.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1322580190057345028

Starting at the same time as school closure is the city going for lock-down due to CORVID-19.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

One gunman down, and one somewhere hiding, that means these 6 shootings are carried out by two terrorists.

Im curious about their background. The terrorist from Nice was a Tunisian who recently entered Europe.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

According to nos.nl there were three terrorists. One is shot dead by the police, one is caught, and the third is not yet found. It seems they have a connection with ISIS.
These are the places of the attacks.

 

[OPSSG]

One gunman down, and one somewhere hiding, that means these 6 shootings are carried out by two terrorists.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323500395428257792

Updates from the Police at the start of a new morning. My prayers are with the injured. Not sure if the active shooter is in police custody.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In this newsreport they give a little bit different and contradictory information about the terrorist(s).
- 1 male civillian and two female civillian lost their lives.
- The shot dead terrorist is an Albanian with Austrian nationality and ISIS-member with fake-bombbelt.
- At least one person is arrested, but it is unclear why.

Terreuraanslag Wenen eist vier levens, dader was aanhanger van IS

De aanslagpleger vuurde ongericht op bezoekers van restaurants en bars. Het gaat om een 20-jarige Oostenrijker met een Noord-Macedonische achtergrond.

nos.nl

The person in white on the video seems to be the terrorist.

 

[OPSSG]

- The shot dead terrorist is an Albanian with Austrian nationality and ISIS-member with fake-bombbelt.

1. Looks like the Fedayeen Attack was conducted by a home grown terrorist. Twenty-year-old killer Kujtim Fejzulai was jailed in April 2019 because he was 1 of 90 who wanted to travel to Syria to join ISIS. Therefore, he was known to intelligence services but not deemed a threat — he was granted early release in Dec 2019 under juvenile law.

2. Given that Kujtim Fejzulai was armed with a Zastava M70AB2 (chambered in 7.62x39mm), a 9mm pistol, and a machete, the casualty count of 17 wounded and 4 killed (2 men and 2 women) is low. If he had fought in Syria, he would have more tactically aware and easily killed 4 to 5 times more civilians before being 'neutralised' at 8.09pm by armed police. Kujtim Fejzulai posted a photo on his Instagram account before the attack that showed him with 3 of the weapons he used, Interior Minister Karl Nehammer announced.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323600234044338176

3. An elderly man and woman, a young male passer-by and a waitress were killed in Fejzulai's attack, however it remains unclear if he was the only shooter and a manhunt was launched. In the attack, a 28-year-old police officer was shot and seriously wounded, he was among 17 people injured, seven of whom were in a critical, life-threatening condition.

4. The editor-in-chief of the Viennese magazine "Falter", Florian Klenk, claims that Kujtim Fejzulai is a young Viennese of Albanian origin; and his parents are from Northern Macedonia.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It seems that there was only one terrorist (the 20 years old man who was taken down by the police), an ISIS supporter. Fourteen people are arrested, but the police did not give any details yet.

In april 2019 he got a 22-months sentence for participation with a terrorist organisation, but was released from prison 9 months later in december 2019 because of humanitary reasons. He joined a deradicaliserings programma, and pretended he was 'healed'.

Vermoedelijk één aanslagpleger in Wenen, IS claimt verantwoordelijkheid

In een bericht van IS wordt de dader "Abu Dujana al-Albani" genoemd, verwijzend naar een Albanese achtergrond.

nos.nl

 

[OPSSG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326706037282529280

Austria's Chancellor Kurz said, "We must all pull together here in Europe ... in the fight against terrorism and radical Islam and the protection of the EU's external borders."

Following the terrorist attack in Vienna earlier this week, the Austrian government has raided and dissolved two radical mosques linked to radical Islam. Culture Minister Susanne Raab and Interior Minister Karl Nehammer announced the closure of the mosques on Friday, one of which is said to have contributed to the radicalisation of the Vienna gunman who killed four people.

Minister Raab defended the closures stating, “It is not an attack against the members of a religious community, but it is a common fight against the abuse of a religion by radicals.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1325756992892309509

Austria will make it a criminal to offence to spread political Islam; keep convicted terrorists behind bars for life. The measures will target both terror suspects & the ideology that drives them.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The problem is also the endless stream of so called 'refugees' from the Africa and the Middle-East. Of course there are real refugees among them, but why do they travel so far and skip so many countries? Why do they refuse to stay close to their home country, and demand that they could go to the whitest and richest countries?

But for decades if you ask such questions, you are regarded as a racist and neo-nazi by the Leftists in Europe, so now thousands of those parasites are ready in EU to spread their hatred and hostile attitude against the indigenous people.

 

[Maximuswarrior]

The problem is also the endless stream of so called 'refugees' from the Africa and the Middle-East. Of course there are real refugees among them, but why do they travel so far and skip so many countries? Why do they refuse to stay close to their home country, and demand that they could go to the whitest and richest countries?

But for decades if you ask such questions, you are regarded as a rasist and neo-nazi by the Leftists in Europe, so now thousands of those parasites are ready in EU to spread their hatred and hostile attitude against the indigenous people.

I would like to record the other perspective in this topic. It is important to have an understanding of such a complex problem from all sides.

ISIS and extremism in certain Islamic nations didn't fall from the sky. We have to be brutally honest here and do some introspection.

For decades, a bloc of predominantly Western nations has invaded and occupied certain Middle Eastern nations due to political and economic incentives. [Mod edit: A generic blame the ‘West’ theme is a bit problematic to say the least. While it is possible to agree that the 2nd Gulf War (with Bush II’s ill advised invasion of Iraq), accelerated some trends, it is important to note that Iran did play a part in providing weapons and technical support to certain sectarian groups through the IRGC, which resulted in a civil war, in Iraq, along tribal and ethnic fault lines of their society.]

Let's face it. The project has gone awefully awry. The terrorism issue prominently came to the forefront during the Iraq fiasco. Various armed militias in took it upon themselves to fight what they termed an illegal occupation. [Mod edit: We can’t just buy into insurgency talking points. Iraq is broken but it is not so simple as blame only the Americans or UK (as a troop contributor) — who did pay a price in blood, treasure and international standing. You may disagree but IMHO, coalition troops in Iraq did try to stop the ethnic conflict.]

Groups like ISIS/AQ and many others were formed on religious lines to unite the masses and fight illegal occupations. [Mod edit: The problem with trying to pin blame on the West only requires you to ignore an important fact — the withdrawal of US military forces from Iraq was completed by Dec 2011 — while Iran remained active in Iraq all this time.

ISIS gained global prominence in early 2014 when it drove Iraqi government forces out of key cities in its Western Iraq offensive, followed by its capture of Mosul and the Sinjar massacre. This occurred after the Iraq’s decision to create conditions where the Americans would leave and they did go by Dec 2011.]

What started as a pilot project in Iraq suddenly caught on in many other places around the world. Such sentiments existed long ago, but all they needed was a little organisation. Extremism got a lot of help and boost during wars in the Middle East. The genie is now out of the bottle so to speak. Of course, the Salafi school of thought which is very rigid and extreme has also played a big role in fanning the flames of extremism.

The answer to the question why many war and economic refugees opt for Europe instead of other nations is simple. Europe is one of the few places on the planet which still has some level of sympathy left. The European nations are economically sound. These are stable nations where there is little poverty nor instability.

One could also say the same thing for GCC nations. Unfortunately, GCC nations lack sympathy. The oil rich sheikhs have other interests and seem to care little for their immediate surrounding. More importantly, Arab sheikhs argue they didn't start wars in their region which resulted in mass misery. Why should Arab nations take the burden of millions of war refugees? From a humanitarian perspective such a question is indeed repulsive, but from a principled stance it makes sense. Hence, the war ravaged refugee and economically starved migrant makes the obvious choice.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I would like to record the other perspective in this topic. It is important to have an understanding of such a complex problem from all sides.

ISIS and extremism in certain Islamic nations didn't fall from the sky. We have to be brutally honest here and do some introspection.

For decades, a bloc of predominantly Western nations has invaded and occupied certain Middle Eastern nations due to political and economic incentives. Let's face it. The project has gone awefully awry. The terrorism issue prominently came to the forefront during the Iraq fiasco. Various armed militias took it upon themselves to fight what they termed an illegal occupation. Groups like ISIS/AQ and many others were formed on religious lines to unite the masses and fight illegal occupations. What started as a pilot project in Iraq suddenly caught on in many other places around the world. Such sentiments existed long ago, but all they needed was a little organisation. Extremism got a lot of help and boost during wars in the Middle East. The genie is now out of the bottle so to speak. Of course, the Salafi school of thought which is very rigid and extreme has also played a big role in fanning the flames of extremism.

The answer to the question why many war and economic refugees opt for Europe instead of other nations is simple. Europe is one of the few places on the planet which still has some level of sympathy left. The European nations are economically sound. These are stable nations where there is little poverty nor instability. One could also say the same thing for GCC nations. Unfortunately, GCC nations lack sympathy. The oil rich sheikhs have other interests and seem to care little for their immediate surrounding. More importantly, Arab sheikhs argue they didn't start wars in their region which resulted in mass misery. Why should Arab nations take the burden of millions of war refugees? From a humanitarian perspective such a question is indeed repulsive, but from a principled stance it makes sense. Hence, the war ravaged refugee and economically starved migrant makes the obvious choice.

Well it is true that Western countries supported rebellion in this so called 'Arabian Spring' and invaded countries like Irak, Syria and Libya in name of freedom and democracy, but did it actually for the oil and to replace the government with a pro-western/american one.
And yes, because of this power-vacuum, extremists and terrorists got the chance to multiply themselves.

But its just remarkable that a very large part of the 'refugees' are single men. Real refugees will always take their family with them and never leave them behind. Also funny is that countries like Greece, Italy and Spain are regarded as "not white enough".

But when these men arrive (often pretending as minors) in these countries they show their real faces, like we have seen in the period 2015-2016, after more than a million illegal immigrants entered Europe. In Köln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart en Hamburg hundreds of women were robbed, sexually assaulted or worse. But also outside Germany like in Sweden and Finland.

Lots of these 'refugees' are from safe countries with no war, but they have often a twisted view on the indigenous people of Europe. And with the huge invasion, the terroristic attacks grew significantly, starting in 2015.

Edit: Since 1991, Austria never invaded or bombed any country. Austria has even opened a Representation with the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah (West Bank) and granted the Palestinian representation in Vienna the diplomatic status of a Representation of Palestine. As part of EU, Austria supports the Middle East Peace Process and tries to play an active role, even after the US and allies messed up the Middle-East; there is no reason to defend terroristic attacks on Austrians and other Europeans only because they are "white/Caucasian/Aryan and infidelic".

@Sandhi Yudha Can you please check the accuracy of your historical claim that "Austria never invaded or bombed any country ". In 1914 the Austro-Hungarian Empire kicked off WW1 after the Arch Duke Ferdinand and heir to the throne was assassinated by a Serbian nationalist. Austria was the Austro part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and the imperial capital was Vienna. In 1938 Hitler absorbed Austria into the Third Reich via the anschluss and there wasn't significant opposition to it.

The Moderators have had a complaint about the inaccuracy in your post therefore we strongly suggest that you delete that particular sentence.

Ngatimozart.

 

[Maximuswarrior]

Well it is true that Western countries supported rebellion in this so called 'Arabian Spring' and invaded countries like Irak, Syria and Libya in name of freedom and democracy, but did it actually for the oil and to replace the government with a pro-western/american one.
And yes, because of this power-vacuum, extremists and terrorists got the chance to multiply themselves.

But its just remarkable that a very large part of the 'refugees' are single men. Real refugees will always take their family with them and never leave them behind. Also funny is that countries like Greece, Italy and Spain are regarded as "not white enough".

But when these men arrive (often pretending as minors) in these countries they show their real faces, like we have seen in the period 2015-2016, after more than a million illegal immigrants entered Europe. In Köln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart en Hamburg hundreds of women were robbed, sexually assaulted or worse. But also outside Germany like in Sweden and Finland.

Lots of these 'refugees' are from safe countries with no war, but they have often a twisted view on the indigenous people of Europe. And with the huge invasion, the terroristic attacks grew significantly, starting in 2015.

And Austria never invaded or bombed any country.
So even after the US and allies messed up the Middle-East, there is no reason to defend terroristic attacks on Austrians and other Europeans only because they are "white/Caucasian/Aryan and infidelic".

Thank you for your reply. I have very often heard the claims that among the refugees the men represent the majority. I am not going to deny that this might be true, but I would like to see irrefutable stats which confirms this opinion. Preferably from a neutral and unbiased source.

There is no denying that Northern European countries are economically and socially more developed than their Southern peers. For economic migrants it makes perfect sense to opt for Northern European nations over Southern European nations. For wartorn refugees it also makes sense to opt for Northern European destinations because they are treated differently. Many reports by human rights organisations clearly state that migrants and refugees are treated unequally in many European nations and especially Southern European countries.

Moria migrants: Fire destroys Greek camp leaving 13,000 without shelter

Moria migrants: Fire destroys Greek camp leaving 13,000 without shelter

The facility on the Greek island of Lesbos, designed for fewer than 3,000 people, has been destroyed.

www.bbc.com

World Report 2019: Rights Trends in European Union

www.hrw.org

I have to admit that Southern European nations have became a scapegoat in the endless refugee crisis. Most Northern European countries are trying to stop the refugees from reaching their borders. Particularly Turkey and Greece have become dumping grounds where the EU pays sums of money to the host nations to accommodate the refugees. As a result, these host nations are inundated by refugees and the EU keeps turning a blind eye. Naturally, this won't earn the refugees any goodwill from the locals.

You also have to remember that not every refugee who enters European territory has an impeccable record. Logically, refugees will contain ordinary criminals and even war criminals who have committed egregious human rights violations against their own people. From rape to murder and everything else. Is that a revelation? I don't think so. Considering the background and history of these refugees there is always a likelihood. Like any group of people, the refugees also contain mentally unstable people. It is the responsibility of the concerned authorities to distinguish between genuine refugees and those that are mentally unstable. If these refugees commit crimes against the native peoples, it is often magnified by the media for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes the media coverage is justifiable and accurate, but on certain occasions it is malicious reporting by a segment of the media. I don't take every media report seriously. The incidents that took place in Germany were conflicting. I have heard media reports that were biased against the refugees. I have also read media reports that gave a more balanced narrative and blamed both sides for rioting. The far right in Germany also played a major role in igniting ruckus between both camps. [Mod Edit: The government in Germany does not encourage or allow the mainstreaming of this point of view. Citing some despicable fringe position, to colour the ground truth, is an active attempt at misrepresenting Germany and Europe.]

The refugees come from various societies. They have left their own society, family and people to settle in a far flung foreign land. I can assure you that is something you don't do willingly. Often the refugees come from Middle Eastern countries where war is raging which wasn't their doing. These countries are collateral damage for world powers. You claim that refugees come from safe countries? Could you name them to me? You have to distinguish between economic migrants and refugees.

Austria is renowned for its anti-islam and anti-immigrant rhetoric. Austria is also known for its extreme far right political views. [Mod Edit: Citing some despicable fringe position and saying this stereotype applies to an entire country is problematic.] I am not going to condone any violence by any side, but we have to put things into perspective.

Austria’s crisis is a lesson for Europe: far-right parties are unfit to govern

Austria’s crisis is a lesson for Europe: far-right parties are unfit to govern | Julia Ebner

The Freedom party is destroying public trust in democracy, says the Austrian journalist Julie Ebner

www.theguardian.com

Macron and Kurz Flex Antiterror Muscles for Domestic Audience

Macron and Kurz Flex Antiterror Muscles for Domestic Audience (Published 2020)

The context of a European-wide meeting on Tuesday was tackling the Continent’s terrorism concerns. For the leaders of France and Austria, political interests were the subtext.

www.nytimes.com

We have to refrain from blowing things out of proportion. It is a false premise to claim that refugees from a certain creed or belonging hate Westerners, white people, Christianity etc. It is a dangerous oversimplification of the complex ground realities. Often, this propaganda is used by extreme far right proponents to create a false narrative against refugees. Unfortunately, the media plays a highly negative role in constantly highlighting negative aspects. Certainly there are challenges when refugees i.e. non-native human beings have to settle in a new society, but they can be overcome when the society works together. There are going to be success stories and there are going to be failures.

Did you know that major attacks have occurred against Muslims and minorities living in Western societies? It would be very simplistic for Muslims to generalise and claim that white people harbour hate against Muslims and minorities. Of course that is not true.

A solution is achievable in my opinion. If the Western nations abandon their foreign adventures, stability can be attained. Poverty and unequal opportunities will always remain, but the flow of war refugees can be controlled. Unfortunately, this won't happen because Western powers feel the need to empower their henchmen in countries they deem of economic and strategic importance. This will always lead to bloodshed, instability and a never ending refugee crisis.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

[Mod edit: Thank you for trying to provide sources but I have some discomfort with some aspects of your position. Members have raised concerns about how this thread is being moderated — as such, I am intervening to address these concerns. While you are free to disagree, IMHO, the actions of some refugees does not change the fact that there are refugees who need help.]I already spend too much time on searching for newsreports and articles for my #15 post, so lets not talk about political parties.
And i just lost the majority of my text while i was typing here, because i was looking for proves and examples for two hours. So i keep it short.

I remember that the Moria immigrants set fire to their own tents, expecting that with this act they will transfered to other countries. Some leftish organisations claim that the Greek people started the fire, but if that was true, why hindered the immigrants the fire fighters?


"Did you know that major attacks have occurred against Muslims and minorities living in Western societies?"

Yes i know that, but
1. This threat is about the terroristic attacks in Austria.
2. Terrorist attacks do not justify other terrorist attacks.

I normally check multiple newsreports, articles, newschannels and press agencies to get a better view on things that happen.

Just take a small country as the Netherlands as an example.
Illegal immigrants attacking police and ambulance personnel.

Only in the illegal immigrant center of Zwolle they already got 400 single men.
From jan-okt 2014 around 50% from the 24.000 people are from Syria.

And these ten thousands of people are getting food, a place and money.

I understand that 4 toilets for 200 people are not enough, that they need showers and that rooms need a lock....but these people are angry and unsatisfied about the food. Just look what they all got, for free, and still they complain!

Here about the countries of origin of the attackers on the night of 2015-2016 in Germany.

Politiechef Keulen op non-actief na groepsaanranding

Het besluit volgt op de ophef over de groepsaanranding met Oud en Nieuw.

nos.nl

About your last alinea/part of your post:
Not invading countries or starting proxy wars in Africa and the Middle-East will decrease the chaos there, but there will always be wars in that instable part off the world.

 

[Maximuswarrior]

I already spend too much time on searching for newsreports and articles for my #15 post, so lets not talk about political parties.
And i just lost the majority of my text while i was typing here, because i was looking for proves and examples for two hours. So i keep it short.

I remember that the Moria immigrants set fire to their own tents, expecting that with this act they will transfered to other countries. Some leftish organisations claim that the Greek people started the fire, but if that was true, why hindered the immigrants the fire fighters?


"Did you know that major attacks have occurred against Muslims and minorities living in Western societies?"

Yes i know that, but
1. This threat is about the terroristic attacks in Austria.
2. Terrorist attacks do not justify other terrorist attacks.

I normally check multiple newsreports, articles, newschannels and press agencies to get a better view on things that happen.

Just take a small country as the Netherlands as an example. Illegal immigrants attacking police and ambulance personnel.

Only in the illegal immigrant center of Zwolle they already got 400 single men.
From jan-okt 2014 around 50% from the 24.000 people are from Syria.

And these ten thousands of people are getting food, a place and money.

I understand that 4 toilets for 200 people are not enough, that they need showers and that rooms need a lock....but these people are angry and unsatisfied about the food. Just look what they all got, for free, and still they complain!

Here about the countries of origin of the attackers on the night of 2015-2016 in Germany.

Politiechef Keulen op non-actief na groepsaanranding

Het besluit volgt op de ophef over de groepsaanranding met Oud en Nieuw.

nos.nl

About your last alinea/part of your post:
Not invading countries or starting proxy wars in Africa and the Middle-East will decrease the chaos there, but there will always be wars in that instable part off the world.

This is a vicious circle that won't end unfortunately. Like I have already pointed out in my previous post, the refugee crisis is complicated. Of course, there are instances where refugees are involved in criminal activities, but we cannot blame all refugees for the actions of a few. Just like we cannot blame all natives for the negative actions of a few. If we go by stats, the natives easily dwarf the refugees when it comes to crime. [Mod edit: Is trolling the only way to make a point? And in this thread, you are not even trying to be fair and attributing to the body politic the views of the fringe. There is a certain amount of political friction and straight-up opposition to FPÖ views in Austrian politics — both internally and externally. The European Union has sanctioned Austria over the politics and political role and ambition of the FPÖ in the past, and the rights of refugees and immigrants in Austria have been a particularly highlighted topic in this regard.]

The debate about refugees being a harmful group is just a smokescreen. The real intent is the unwillingness to host the refugees. The arguments given by far right extremists is often based on prejudice and racism. I won't even delve into them. [Mod edit: Your claims are a smokescreen. By definition, control of borders and who to let in, is a basic role of a state.]

My concern is mainly with natives who aren't racist or don't have an allegiance with the far right. Yet, they are negatively impacted by the propaganda against refugees. [Mod edit: The terrorist attack in Vienna is not related to refugees, their treatment or rights, or the policies of Austria with regard to them. Being under attack by terrorists is being negatively impacted. Their right to ask the state to take measures to ensure that such attacks are not repeated and prevent a repeat of a terror attack should be seen as addressing security concerns.]

Middle Eastern, African or other developing parts of the world weren't always unstable. History proves this very clearly. Let's face it, instability happens when foreign powers meddle in the affairs of sovereign nations. From colonialism to devastating wars. Every region and nation has its fair share of challanges, but what we are witnessing in certain Middle Eastern nations today is the handiwork of outsiders. The wish to change regimes and install henchmen is a big part of instability.

My argument is to leave nations as they are. Often the argument is that people need to be saved from tyrants and human rights violations. No, they will survive as they have for thousands of years. The people will rise up against injustice when the time is right. We don't require foreign intervention which often does more harm than good as many wars have demonstrated this very vividly.

Mod edit: The attacker in Vienna was born and raised in Austria to ethnic albanian parents of North Macedonian nationality, and himself held dual Austrian and North Macedonian citizenship. Other members supporting him had a similar background, often with family connections to Balkan or Caucasus countries. You are attempting to turn the discussion into a proxy war, by steering attention to this particular political and politicized topic.

Further, it is fairly insensitive to have this discussion on foreign wars and who to blame on the wake of yet another terror attack in Europe. Please read the Forum Rules, before posting again. No more excuses. We have standards of sourcing and referencing that are expected of all posters. These standards are outlined in the rules.

No reply to this warning is necessary. If you don't follow the rules then your time on here will be short.

 

[ngatimozart]

This is a vicious circle that won't end unfortunately. Like I have already pointed out in my previous post, the refugee crisis is complicated. Of course, there are instances where refugees are involved in criminal activities, but we cannot blame all refugees for the actions of a few. Just like we cannot blame all natives for the negative actions of a few. If we go by stats, the natives easily dwarf the refugees when it comes to crime.

The debate about refugees being a harmful group is just a smokescreen. The real intent is the unwillingness to host the refugees. The arguments given by far right extremists is often based on prejudice and racism. I won't even delve into them. My concern is mainly with natives who aren't racist or don't have an allegiance with the far right. Yet, they are negatively impacted by the propaganda against refugees.

Middle Eastern, African or other developing parts of the world weren't always unstable. History proves this very clearly. Let's face it, instability happens when foreign powers meddle in the affairs of sovereign nations. From colonialism to devastating wars. Every region and nation has its fair share of challanges, but what we are witnessing in certain Middle Eastern nations today is the handiwork of outsiders. The wish to change regimes and install henchmen is a big part of instability.

My argument is to leave nations as they are. Often the argument is that people need to be saved from tyrants and human rights violations. No, they will survive as they have for thousands of years. The people will rise up against injustice when the time is right. We don't require foreign intervention which often does more harm than good as many wars have demonstrated this very vividly.

I would argue differently that when certain Middle Eastern nations who have the financial wherewithal to take in and support refugees of their own religion, such as Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and Libyan refugees, they don't. So the refugees descend upon Europe. Most of the refugees are economic refugees and as has been posted previously here by other posters many are young males. I actually agree with @Sandhi Yudha and the fact is also that he speaks as an Indonesian and is knowledgeable about Islam. My point about Sandhi is that he sees the issue through an Indonesian and Muslim lens giving him a well informed view because he has a similar worldview. Whereas those of us who who maybe European, North American, Australian etc., see the issue through different lens and our own worldviews.

The tension or conflict goes back centuries to the crusades and the Europeans do not want an uncontrolled influx of Muslims refugees flooding the the European hinterland. Many Muslim nations actively discourage religions other than Islam, so they don't have the right to complain if the Europeans get a bit antsy about the refugees and their ability to integrate with the host country — it is ultimately an European call to accept, restrict or reject, those who can to travel to their borders.

It is also about costs and resources, especially now with the COVID-19 pandemic. Many European nations are really struggling as it is with the pandemic and that is just the health side. The economic scale of the pandemic is yet to fully strike and many European nations will be hit extremely hard by the economic fall out. Greece, Italy, Spain, UK are a few that come to mind. Even the European economic powerhouse, Germany will take a big hit. So they won't have the funding or resources for influxes of refugees because they will be struggling to support their own populace which is their first priority.

So why aren't the rich Gulf States and Iran stepping up to the plate and helping their displaced brothers and sisters in Islam? Isn't that a a basic tenet of Islam that you help your brothers and sisters in their time of need? Those nations are very noticeable by their absence.

 

[Ananda]

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www.lejournalinternational.fr

Only 14% of all refugees from Arab region are in Europe: UN report

The Arab region comprising 18 countries hosts 15% of all migrants and refugees worldwide; it is currently seeing "unprecedented levels of migration." Despite these high levels, the majority of migrants and refugees stay within the region. To date, Europe has received only 14% of all refugees...

www.infomigrants.net

I hope I don't derail much on the topics of this thread. Those two articles above I put as it shown why Rich Gulf Kingdoms behave to Arab's refugees, and also the distribution of Arab Refugees.

The first article I put also reflect my personal experience. I've been to Saudi several times in business trips and religious trips. I also have some colleagues in Saudi, UAE and Oman (mostly expats but few are native also). Thus just like the first article put, I also see similar as article point out on Rich Gulf Kingdoms treatment to 'poorer' Arabs.

One thing is clear, the native citizens in Gulf Kingdoms got substantial subsidy and preference treatment. While the other Arab from poorer nation's like Yamani, Syria, Egypt or Lebanon got similar treatment as Migrant workers from South Asia, Southest Asia or Expats from Asia and Western countries.

In such they're expected will be only temporary in Gulf Kingdoms and then return home when their job or projects finish. The Kingdoms don't recognize the concept of refugees, they're basically only recognize concept of Citizen (which's their own natives) and temporary resident for migrant workers and expats.

Once when I was in Jeddah, I talk with Taxi driver who's Yamani. Once He knows I'm coming from Indonesia, he told me that the Saudis like you guys more then us who are fellow Arab's, cause we're poor Arab. They only like Arabs from other rich Kingdoms, not us that come from Yamen or Palestinian etc.

When I talk to my colleagues, and basically they're confirm that as the Rich Kingdoms see those 'poor' Arab potentially blending in toward their own native citizens. Thus one days they can ask similar treatment toward what they give to their own citizens, simply on the account they are Arab too. While the other migrants know well that they're only temporary in Gulf Kingdoms and mostly will be back home.

So they're reluctant to take refugees from Syria and Libia, seems related on not want to get potential "migrants" that come not to work. This is back to the idea, they're only recognize temporary resident for Migrant workers and expats outside their own citizen.

Considering what happened to Kuwait when Iraq invade them, where many Palestinians "migrants" accepting Iraqi army (hoping Iraqi will treat them better than Kuwait Kingdom). It's understandable that Gulf Kingdoms are very cautious on accepting other Arabs in to their land.

However if we take a look on second article from UNHCR, it's clear majority of refugees from Syria (as example) are stay in the region (mostly in Turkey, Egypt, and Lebanon). So they're still stay in Levant region. Perhaps this's why many Euro leaders still acceptable with Erdogan antics, worrying that Erdogan will open the gate, if they're pushing him too far.

It's also shown that just like in human nature, those Syrians refugees are more comfortable stay on area that culturally not much different with their home. Seems the Rich Kingdoms prefer to subsidise Egyptian, Lebanon or Turkish to keep them in their border, rather than take them into their own territory.

Back to European refugees, based on those articles and some other media reports. I do tend to see that those going to Europe are looking for potential economics benefits. Thus they're more can be classified as Economics refugees.
Human trafficking can also play parts, as many reports saying those that went to Europe also pay money to traffickers to smuggle them.

Not that saying among those that come to Europe are really genuine refugees that have persecution risks if staying in Levant area. However just like the UNHCR report, that's minority since majority of them still staying in the area.

Sadly those refugees now are part of Political tools on immigration issue (in Europe or other Western Nation), and teritorial issue (in Turkey) where they are being trained militarily for them to carve out their own teritorial area in Syria (as buffer).