Survivabillity of S-300PMU1 (SA-10D)

[kostas-zochios]

Hello everybody, this is my second post!!!! i hope someone will reply this time:lul . Greece has set up a s-300pmu1 system in crete. this system has 1 search radar, 2 illumination radars, 1 Low Altitude Target Acquisition Radar (LATAR) and 4 KAMAZ truck launchers of 4 missiles each. The system also uses 4 TOR-M1 launchers controled by 2 Ranzhir C2 posts to protect it. It is based in an airbase (souda) where 40 F-16C BLOCK 52+ AND 20 F-16D BLOCK 52+ (missionized) are based. If turkey descides to destroy that system, what force should it use? What can Greece do to increse the survivabillity of the system? Could AEW&C aircraft help the turkish operations? If Greece uses AEW&C aircraft, could it better protect the system from a turkish SEAD or DEAD operation? I hope it wont end up like this :nutkick ...
INFO
1 turkey uses harpy antiradar UCAVs (Israeli made)
2 turkey uses HARM missiles
3 the greek F-16 blk 52+ use AIM-120C-5 AMRAAMs and IRIS-T AA missiles
4 turkey's stand-off capabillities are limited to the Popeye missile(i think it is a variant of Have Nap) that are launched from F-4s
5 Greece will start using 4 ERIEYE AEW&C aircraft in 1-2 years time-turkey uses none

INTERNET INFO

The S-300PMU1 surface-to-air missile system is designed for effective protection against aircraft attacks, as well as cruise, aeroballistic, and theatre ballistic missiles in complicated aerial situation and intensive clutter and jamming environment.
The surface-to-air missile system ensures:
simultaneous engaging up to 6 targets by guidance of up to 12 missiles;
highly automated detection and acquisition procedures;
stand-alone combat capability;
conditions for a sustained duty;
high capability for integration into any air defence forces;
enhanced manoeuvrability;
capability to operate in wooded and harsh terrain;
a 10-year no-maintenance missile serviceability

The S-300PMU1 surface-to-air missile system comprises:
a 30N6E1 illumination and guidance radar;
up to 12 5P85ME (5P85SE) launchers, each carrying four 48N6E surface-to-air guided missiles;
ITI2-2M location referencer;
spare parts and accessories sets;
service instructions;
82Ts6E SAM technical maintenance facilities

Engagement zone:
Aerodynamic targets:
min range, km 5
max range, km 150
min altitude, m 10
max altitude, m 27,000
Theatre-range ballistic missiles:
max range, km 40
min altitude, m 2
max altitude, m 25,000
Single shoot kill probability:
aerodynamic targets 0.7 ... 0.93
theatre ballistic missiles 0.5 ... 0.77
Max target speed, m/sec up to 2,800
Warhead weight, kg 143
Reaction time, sec 8 ... 10
Deployment out/in time, min 5

 

[psyclops]

The S-300PMU1 looks like a good system, on paper at least. Offhand, I can't think of anything the Turks have that could reliably take it out; their systems lack the necessary range, I think. Harpy seems like a good system, but I can't recall its range (too lazy to look it up), but I'm pretty sure it's not close to outranging S-300. HARM obviously is a good system, but I don't think its F-4s could get it into launch range, especially if you add in Greece's Block 52 F-16s and Erieye AEW&C. Given the level of threat to Greece, I'd say their S-300s will be safe and sitting there looking pretty for many years to come. If, on the other hand, Turkey gets some low-observable long-range SEAD system and for some odd reason gets a wild hair to attack Greece, then we'd have to re-evaluate.

 

[Wild Weasel]

Turkish special forces launched from subs are probably the most effective means Turkey currently has to knock out the S300's. But their close relationship with Israel means that they could probably buy access to technolgies that could neutralize the SAM threat in a very short span of time.

Also, the Harpy has a reported range of more than 500km, and the ability to launch from ground vehicles, or surface ships which makes it quite dangerous to the Greek S300.

 

[kostas-zochios]

I think wild weasel's observation about spedial forces is correct. Turkey is known for her covert operations capabillities. I also heard that turkey's buying new stand-off weaponry such as JDAM, JSOW and SLAM-ER. Things are getting complicated... I think Harpies can be taken out by the Gauntlets. What should Greece do?

 

[Wild Weasel]

From the perspective of a non-Greek/non-Turk.... why must anything be done at all? These nations stand to gain nothing as enemies, but utter destruction. There is no need for Greece to deploy the S300 SAM to defend Cyprus from Turkey, and there is no need for Turkey to buy systems to defeat cypriot-based Greek SAMs.

There is only an ancient grudge-match, and nations eager to supply either nation with defense systems for enormous sums of money.

But, as I said- I am neither Greek, nor Turk.

Less philosophically- Greece must be prepared to defend against Turkish SPECOPS, and long-range ARMs. Turkey clearly has the advantage of initiative.

 

[kostas-zochios]

I agree with you wild weasel. I always want to believe(and i do believe!) that G and T can live together peacefully, but I am always mistaken: Every single day, the turkish airforce flies over the Aegean without any flightplan and we launch our fighters to drive them away. I am speaking about tens of fighter planes. What if one day a commercial airplane is hijacked and aimed to do a 9-11 strike and we are too busy driving away the Turks? or recognise that plane as another turkish 'game'??? Turkey has voted that if greece expands its territorial waters it will recognised as a 'casus belli'. Turkey does not recognise greek sovereignity (right word? ) on several islands of the aegean. In 1996 Greece and Turkey came very close to waging total war over 2 uninhabited islets (Imia or Kardak). A Greek helicopter was lost-it may have been shot down. Notice I am speaking about the last ten years and exclude Cyprus

 

[Wild Weasel]

Oh, I am aware of the strife that exists between Greece and Turkey- recent and ancient. I attended school in Belgium, at NATO headquarters, and had both Turkish, and Greek friends. Neither of whom could understand the animosity in their governments for the other, nor could they explain it sufficiently to me. Interestingly, we all viewed the Soviet Union as our common enemy, and therefore, our common friendship only required the ancient philosophy of: "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend." ( even if that friend is Greek or Turkish. )

But then, perhaps it doesn't even matter "why", anymore. I'm a warrior- raised as a warrior in a family of warriors, trained and paid as a professional soldier by my own nation. And I'm educated enough to know that Man as a species does not always require a logical reason to consider his neighbor as an enemy that must be destroyed at all costs.

Anyway, I'm afraid that I have strayed too far from the subject with my Obi wan-esque meandering.

Like I said, I believe that the most effective means that Turkey could use to neutralize the S300, would be most simply achieved with SPECOPS direct action. While the S300 is a robust, and highly effective world-class SAM system, it has a very vulnerable Achilles-heel. ( please pardon the pun. )
Take out it's very delicate surviellance, or fire-control radar ( with an anti-material rifle, or a man-portable anti-tank weapon, for instance ) and all of those enormous missiles are instantly rendered completely useless.

Such an attack could best be thwarted by:

1.) Keeping the system as mobile as possible, and maintaining as much secrecy about it's deployments as is reasonably possible.

2.) Develop, deploy, and maintain a defence force that can reliably defend against SPECOPS teams, and terrorism. ( Both are equally serious threats to Greece. )

3.) Utilize a complex and robust network of search and tracking sensors, and command and control systems that allows command authority to be transfered quickly and easily amongst several independent operators. I don't know if the S300's have the capability- ( I suspect that it could be retrofitted anyway ) to allow the system to be controlled by an airborne AWACS plaform. But if so, a high-endurance, high-altitude AWACS plane orbiting in close proximty to the SAM system would negate the Turkish SPECOPS threat completely, while allowing the system's long range to protect the AWACS asset from Turkish fighter aircraft.

Of course, If I was working for the Turks, I can also think of various means of countering such plans. The S300 could defend against up to 16 total aircraft, before running out of missiles.
So as a Turkish commander, all that I would have to do, is provide at least sixteeen realistic targets ( drones, or decoys ) for the system to engage, and follow-through with ARMs from SEAD-missionized fighters. I'd combine the air-lauched ARM attacks with ground-based Harpy attacks, offensive jamming aircraft, and SPECOPS forces in an attempt to knock out the S300's in a single, fast, coordinated attack. And then, I'd make sure that the system was permanently put out of commision with additional ground attack aircraft, and/or SPECOPS forces.
The multi-tiered air-defense network utilised by Greece certainly complicates matters for the Turkish side. But once the S300's radars/C&C is taken out, or it has expended all of it's missiles, Turkish air and ground-launched ARMs are going to win the day.

At this point in time, the ball is firmly in Turkey's court- they can choose if, and when, where, and the means with which to attack. They can determine what the rules of engagement are, what the "victory conditions" should be, when it is most advantageous to withdraw, and whether or not to follow-up with additional attacks.
It is easier for Turkey to defeat the SAM system than it is for Greece to defend it.
The gains that Turkey will make by destroying the S300, are greater than those Greece has achieved by forward-deploying the system to Cyprus.
Despite being a such a capable weapon, the system has very serious vulnerabilties. And using a such a defense system as a offensive weapon, only sets it up as a liability that serves no other purpose than to be a tempting, and very challenging target.
Basically, if Turkey destroys the system, they have achieved a very realistic tactical victory, as well as a political one. The best possible outcome for Greece, is simply to successfully defend it from attack- but that only sets everything back to square-one.
If it was deterred the first time, Turkey can, ( and probably will ) attempt to destroy the SAM system again, with an even greater likelyhood for success.

What they could do with this "victory" is completely open to speculation. But I doubt highly that such an operation would accomplish anything more than causing an all out war, and the needless deaths of thousands of people on either side. And then of course NATO and the United States are also going to be very much involved, with potentially very servere results for both nations.

 

[Hussain]

Word has it that Turkey may also be planning to purchase the S300. It may also consider the Patriot and Arrow.

Please refer to missilethreat.com

So obviously the S300 is a good long range missile system.

The only scenario similar to the one Greece faces with regard to the the deployment of the S300 is the situation between China and Taiwan.

According to the International Strategy and Assessment Centre:
The most capable air defence system currently in PLA service are derivatives of the Russian Almaz S-300PMU/SA-10 Grumble family of Surface to Air Missiles. The S-300 SAM systems remain one of the most lethal, if not the most lethal, all altitude area defence SAM systems in service, with a range of more capable derivatives entering service in Russia, or in development. Over the Taiwan Strait the later versions of the S-300 become "offensive" weapons in that they can attack targets in Taiwanese airspace, severely challenging that nation’s air defense. Moreover, these missiles threaten all U.S. combat aircraft that may be called upon to assist Taiwan other than the stealthy B-2A and F-22A, the latter which is just entering service in diminished numbers.ystems which would make it vulnerable to first strike. (end quote)

However, even with the addition of the Tor system the Greeks will be depending too much on the S300. Never the less it is still an extremely valuable offensive rather than defensive tool.

 

[kostas-zochios]

Thanks for all that (seriously) interesting info about the S-300 situation. Wild Weasel I would like to inform you that the S-300 arent deployed in Cyprus, but in Crete. They were shipped to Cyprus, but Turkey considered it an offencive weapon (as you said) and they ended up in Crete. The S-300's place an Cyprus is now taken by Tor-M1's and other SHORADS which I believe is a better solution for Cyprus' air defence in comparison to the massive S-300s.