Su-30MK2 for Uganda

[Feanor]

A very strange development. Earlier negotiations were for 6 MiG-29s, and even those would be an overkill. Currently the Air Wing of the UDPF includes some old MiG-21 and MiG-23. However the logical replacement for these aircraft would be some advanced combat-trainers. Certainly not heavy, (and maintenance heavy!) multi-role fighters. Especially given the size of the country.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèÿ ïîñòàâèò Óãàíäå è Àëæèðó 22 èñòðåáèòåëÿ Ñó-30 íà 1,2 ìèëëèàðäà äîëëàðîâ

The contract is estimated at a mere 200 million dollars, which is pretty cheap (~35 million per plane). It's unclear whether this includes post-sale support, maintenance, parts, weapons, etc. but for the price, it's unlikely. Although Uganda should have a stock of Soviet-era munitions for the planes, they certainly wouldn't have modern guided munitions or advanced air-to-air missiles, which means we should either expect a follow on contract for more planes, as well as parts and missiles, or Uganda will be getting limited usefullness out of the planes. Then again they're an expensive overkill to begin with.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ðîññèÿ ïîñòàâèò Óãàíäå øåñòü èñòðåáèòåëåé Ñó-30ÌÊ2

 

[Air Force]

That`s good news for Sukhoi!

 

[dragonfire]

Overkill for a not so modern air force quantity and quality wise, unless its part of an overall modernization effort. Mig-29s would defintely have been a much better choice, given that they are progressing from fishbeds and floggers

Edit: Infact i feel that number wise if they wanted to upgrade their AF then they could have gone for lightweight fighters, atleast the initial investment and maint costs would have been lesser. Too Ambitious ?

 

[fromzg]

Although I agree this is pure overkill, when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa most of us tend to simply disregard them as incapable of operating such aircraft at least on economic basis. Without justifying their move, can anybody shed any light on actual technical and operational competence levels achieved by different sub-Saharan countries (excluding South Africa which is on completely another level).

 

[dragonfire]

Although I agree this is pure overkill, when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa most of us tend to simply disregard them as incapable of operating such aircraft at least on economic basis. Without justifying their move, can anybody shed any light on actual technical and operational competence levels achieved by different sub-Saharan countries (excluding South Africa which is on completely another level).

There should be a threat perception (current or expected) or a military / political need on which a defence requirement is planned. Capability can always be acquired, some might take more time, for some it may take longer. For an AF which has only about a dozen or so fighters buying a completely contemporary aircraft mulitple generations ahead of anything they have used so far throws up a myriad of operational problems. This is why i suggested it is overkill

 

[StevoJH]

There should be a threat perception (current or expected) or a military / political need on which a defence requirement is planned. Capability can always be acquired, some might take more time, for some it may take longer. For an AF which has only about a dozen or so fighters buying a completely contemporary aircraft mulitple generations ahead of anything they have used so far throws up a myriad of operational problems. This is why i suggested it is overkill

I'm guessing its a prestige thing. South Africa is getting Gripen (which they can afford), the countries in north africa are slowly replacing their aircrafts. In my opinion its Uganda trying to "one-up" their neighbours with some flashy new toys that will then spend the next 30 years rotting away in a hanger, only to be pulled out for an occasional military parade as a show of force.

 

[swerve]

Museveni is gradually becoming more & more like Idi Amin.

 

[Feanor]

In my opinion a batch of Yak-130s would have done much better. For the same price they could've had double the airframes, with better turnover rates, and lower maintenance requirements. As it stands the only threats that would justify aircraft like these, are too big for Uganda to handle in the first place.

Swerve there is a key difference. Museveni rules on the basis of reconciliation. Idi Amin ruled on the basis of ethnic, tribal, and religios, superiority. And while african dictators can often be shuffled like a deck of cards, without any significant differences, in this case that is a principal distinction.

 

[pkutesa]

In my opinion a batch of Yak-130s would have done much better. For the same price they could've had double the airframes, with better turnover rates, and lower maintenance requirements. As it stands the only threats that would justify aircraft like these, are too big for Uganda to handle in the first place.

Swerve there is a key difference. Museveni rules on the basis of reconciliation. Idi Amin ruled on the basis of ethnic, tribal, and religios, superiority. And while african dictators can often be shuffled like a deck of cards, without any significant differences, in this case that is a principal distinction.

When you say that Museveni rules on the basis of reconciliation......it sounds nothing more than text book logic and could only be suggested by one who doesnt know Museveni. As a Ugandan,I have witnessed his brutal suppression of dissent......attack on courts of law by the military.....stinking nepotism and tribalism.....did you know that his wife is a cabinet minister? and virtually all goverment agencies are run by his closest kins? This new acquistion of arms(SUs) is an effort to threaten his political opponents and cling on power...to sum the man up,his greed for power has now reached hysterical proportions. We now understand why oil deals are done in secret. At least Amin wasnt a thief,Museveni is just looting the country. It wont be long now for the whole world to know the truth.

 

[Marc 1]

That`s good news for Sukhoi!

But very bad news for the people of Uganda. Should have gotten something less sopisticated, less expensive, easier and cheaper to maintain and fly. Su30's as pointed out before will quickly become expensive apron queens (not having a shot at Sukhoi - any modern highly sophisticated combat aircraft would be from F15 to Eurofighter).

 

[Feanor]

When you say that Museveni rules on the basis of reconciliation......it sounds nothing more than text book logic and could only be suggested by one who doesnt know Museveni. As a Ugandan,I have witnessed his brutal suppression of dissent......attack on courts of law by the military.....stinking nepotism and tribalism.....did you know that his wife is a cabinet minister? and virtually all goverment agencies are run by his closest kins? This new acquistion of arms(SUs) is an effort to threaten his political opponents and cling on power...to sum the man up,his greed for power has now reached hysterical proportions. We now understand why oil deals are done in secret. At least Amin wasnt a thief,Museveni is just looting the country. It wont be long now for the whole world to know the truth.

If you'd like we can start a discussion on the politics of Uganda in the off-topic forum. This however is not the appropriate thread for it. I understand is was partially my fault for bringing up the subject in more depth. However it does have some relevance. If you're interested feel free to make a thread on the subject and we'll continue it from there.

 

[fretburner]

Uganda says it's NOT true

Army spokesperson Lt. Col. Felix Kulayigye dismissed the reports as untrue.

"We had negotiations with the Russians over the jet fighters but upon realising that the cost was too high, we decided otherwise," he said. "We never entered into an agreement with them."

Instead, he said, the Ugandan airforce decided to send its six MIG-21 fighter planes for overhaul to Russia about two weeks ago. He did not say at what cost.

What's up with that?

 

[SkolZkiy]

Source in Rosoboronexport said just like this. Russia would upgrade and repair Uganda's MiG-21 - I suppose to the level better then MiG-21-93

 

[Feanor]

Russian news outlets are silent on the question. But it certainly would make more sense.

 

[Haavarla]

Makes sense to me.

I like your Yak-130 case Feanor, but even those could prove to be too expensive for Uganda..

Thanks

 

[Feanor]

If they had enough for 6 Flankers, they would have enough for 12 Yak-130s. However as they don't have enough for the Flankers, I'd even suggest hunting around for used MiG-21 airframes. The MiG-21-93 upgrade would give them a capable light fighter that would do fine in both limited CAS and air-policing role. Anything else is both an overkill and an underkill.

 

[Marc 1]

Agreed, but it gives a worrying insight into the 'my toy is better than your toy' mindset fof the government though that the Su30's were even being considered.

 

[Feanor]

Or the MiG-29s for that matter.

 

[GI-Gizmo]

Uganda should choose K-8 over Su-30 . . .

There is no use for Uganda to operate 4.5+ generation aircraft. It is highly doubtful that they will even be able to use them, maintain them or find a reason to actually employ them. It is a huge waste of resources that could of been spent much more efficiently. The initial purchase cost for a Sukhoi Su-30 is around $40 million, for a fleet of 6 that would be roughly a quarter of a billion dollars. They would also need modern weaponary, base and support facilities, training, maintnance and many other additional purchases and expenses. It would end up costing over a billion dollars to actually fly them regularly for a few years. Sure, it would make neighbors and potential foes nervous for a short time. It might also start a regional arms race against bigger and richer competitors which Uganda cannot win. In reality though, if they do end up buying a fleet of Flanker-Cs it would mostly be for show. It would keep Museveni in power and would surround him with some awe in the eyes of the populous, it would keep internal political opponents disciplined and it would threaten external opponents with targeting from a modern multirole fighter employing potentially accurate, devastating and hard to defend against firepower. Uganda and the region are poorly equipped when it comes to airpower, they are obviously poor nations with much more important and immedite needs than buying modern fighters. The majority of Ugandans live on less than $1.25 per day. If however the need for airpower is required, the money could be spent much wiser. A Hongdu JL-8 (aka K-8 Karakorum for export versions) can be bought for around $3.5 million. The K-8 is a tandem two seat, light multirole jet aircraft that can be adapted to a variety of roles. It has modern systems like electronic flight instrumentation with multi-function displays, radio comms suite, tactical air navigation and radio compass, instrument landing system, GPS and other features that would be expected on a 21st Century aircraft. The K-8 could be tailored to meet Ugandas requirements and could be customized and become a real multirole asset to the Uganda air wing. The K-8 has five hardpoints and can carry 2,025lbs of ordnance, fuel or pods. It carries a 23mm cannon pod on the centerline hardpoint, PL-5 and PL-7 air-air missiles and can be adapted to the air combat role and carry more advanced weaponary. It can carry rockets, bombs, and cluster bombs and can be adapted to carry guided missiles and bombs. The K-8 would be a much better choice for Uganda.

 

[StevoJH]

Personally I like the hawk, however if the price listed on wiki is correct, they cost roughly as much as an Su-30 anyway.

I'd be looking at ex-Russian trainers or combat aircraft, perhaps one of the Su-series ground attack aircraft.