South African AAM?
- Thread starter zmaj
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oops i thought they had more information:unknown
but try this website
http://www.saairforce.co.za/weapons.htm
as it is somehow known that this missile is based on the Israeli derby missile,try to find some infos about this missile also!
but try this website
http://www.saairforce.co.za/weapons.htm
as it is somehow known that this missile is based on the Israeli derby missile,try to find some infos about this missile also!
Zmaj
I am an engineer in the South African aerospace defence industry. Unfortunately, I should warn you that good info on SA weapons projects over the years are incredibly difficult to obtain in the popular media, unlike the weapons produced by most other countries. Since many of the older projects were specifically aimed only at local use, the security around these have always been extremely tight and there has been very little need for glossy-type advertisement of the products. Even at armaments shows you will usually only see a mockup of the weapon with a bit of general info such as "High Agility Short Range IR Guided Missile".
When you do research in the open literature, the best source I can recommend is material written by Helmoed-Romer Heitman, a defence correspondent who always had very good inside info in the SA industry. He will also usually distinguish clearly between official figures and estimated figures. However, note that even he has to rely only on unclassified info.
The majority of material that I have seen on the web and even in books on SA missiles in particular is extremely inaccurate. Unfortunately, due to the mentioned security even surrounding the now withdrawn from service missiles, I cannot give you much detail besides the few points below:
You asked about S-Darter and T-Darter specifically:
In the case of S-Darter, one should be careful. There was a missile called V3S (actually still in service), which is often referred to as the "Snake" in SA service. It is still flown on Cheetahs, although a lot of them get fired in air-air exercises these days as they are now reaching the end of their shelve life. These missiles are simply Israeli Python 3's - chosen since they could easily be integrated with the HMS used by the SAAF since the late 1970s while the all-aspect V3C was still under development to replace the rear-aspect only V3B.
The V3C never really reached true "mass production". Since not all V3Cs looked the same due to changes during the early production period, they are often referred to under different names in the media which is a cause for much of the confusion.
The missiles referred to in the media as S-Darter and T-Darter are Meteor class BVRAAM missiles with air breathing engines - speculated to be under development. I think the names S-Darter and T-Darter got published when Pakistan had some interest. You will find very little about these missiles anywhere in the media, and you should view anything you read about them with great suspicion - most of it will just be speculation.
The A-Darter is the new generation short range IR AAM currently in development with some joint participation from Brazil and a bit of interest from India - by far the majority of the work is done by the SA industry though. It is also the biggest and most expensive missile programme currently underway in the South African industry. This missile is more-or-less in the same class as Iris-T and it is specifically aimed at integration onto Gripen together with the new Gripen HMD. BTW, the Gripen HMD currently under late pre-production testing is probably the most impressive HMD available right now, but I digress... Locally the A-Darter project is referred to as V3F - you may see it referred to as that in some publications. You will probably find a lot of info about the politics and economic agreements surrounding this missile in the popular press, but again treat any technical info with extreme caution - nothing, and I mean NOTHING, about the technical or predicted technical performance of the missile has been released. Any technical info you will find on the web will be pure speculation.
Finally, to Stimpy 75 - the missile you are refering to with connections to Derby is V4 or more popularly known as R-Darter. It is an AIM 120 class missile currently flying on the Cheetahs. Contrary to what you will find in the press, it is not identical to Derby (unlike V3S which actually IS a Python 3), but rather it was a parallel development of Derby with some early cooperation between Israel / SA, leading to the external similarities in the missiles. V4 is set to be retired with the Cheetah and the plan is to incorporate a more modern BVR missile into SAAF Gripens once the A-Darter project has been completed. If not a locally produced missile, it may be Meteor or something in the same class. Since no final decision has been made about the BVR missile selection for SAAF Gripens, again any such info should be treated as speculation.
Hope that helps a bit, I know it must be a pretty frustrating topic for people with interest in the international defence industry.
I am an engineer in the South African aerospace defence industry. Unfortunately, I should warn you that good info on SA weapons projects over the years are incredibly difficult to obtain in the popular media, unlike the weapons produced by most other countries. Since many of the older projects were specifically aimed only at local use, the security around these have always been extremely tight and there has been very little need for glossy-type advertisement of the products. Even at armaments shows you will usually only see a mockup of the weapon with a bit of general info such as "High Agility Short Range IR Guided Missile".
When you do research in the open literature, the best source I can recommend is material written by Helmoed-Romer Heitman, a defence correspondent who always had very good inside info in the SA industry. He will also usually distinguish clearly between official figures and estimated figures. However, note that even he has to rely only on unclassified info.
The majority of material that I have seen on the web and even in books on SA missiles in particular is extremely inaccurate. Unfortunately, due to the mentioned security even surrounding the now withdrawn from service missiles, I cannot give you much detail besides the few points below:
You asked about S-Darter and T-Darter specifically:
In the case of S-Darter, one should be careful. There was a missile called V3S (actually still in service), which is often referred to as the "Snake" in SA service. It is still flown on Cheetahs, although a lot of them get fired in air-air exercises these days as they are now reaching the end of their shelve life. These missiles are simply Israeli Python 3's - chosen since they could easily be integrated with the HMS used by the SAAF since the late 1970s while the all-aspect V3C was still under development to replace the rear-aspect only V3B.
The V3C never really reached true "mass production". Since not all V3Cs looked the same due to changes during the early production period, they are often referred to under different names in the media which is a cause for much of the confusion.
The missiles referred to in the media as S-Darter and T-Darter are Meteor class BVRAAM missiles with air breathing engines - speculated to be under development. I think the names S-Darter and T-Darter got published when Pakistan had some interest. You will find very little about these missiles anywhere in the media, and you should view anything you read about them with great suspicion - most of it will just be speculation.
The A-Darter is the new generation short range IR AAM currently in development with some joint participation from Brazil and a bit of interest from India - by far the majority of the work is done by the SA industry though. It is also the biggest and most expensive missile programme currently underway in the South African industry. This missile is more-or-less in the same class as Iris-T and it is specifically aimed at integration onto Gripen together with the new Gripen HMD. BTW, the Gripen HMD currently under late pre-production testing is probably the most impressive HMD available right now, but I digress... Locally the A-Darter project is referred to as V3F - you may see it referred to as that in some publications. You will probably find a lot of info about the politics and economic agreements surrounding this missile in the popular press, but again treat any technical info with extreme caution - nothing, and I mean NOTHING, about the technical or predicted technical performance of the missile has been released. Any technical info you will find on the web will be pure speculation.
Finally, to Stimpy 75 - the missile you are refering to with connections to Derby is V4 or more popularly known as R-Darter. It is an AIM 120 class missile currently flying on the Cheetahs. Contrary to what you will find in the press, it is not identical to Derby (unlike V3S which actually IS a Python 3), but rather it was a parallel development of Derby with some early cooperation between Israel / SA, leading to the external similarities in the missiles. V4 is set to be retired with the Cheetah and the plan is to incorporate a more modern BVR missile into SAAF Gripens once the A-Darter project has been completed. If not a locally produced missile, it may be Meteor or something in the same class. Since no final decision has been made about the BVR missile selection for SAAF Gripens, again any such info should be treated as speculation.
Hope that helps a bit, I know it must be a pretty frustrating topic for people with interest in the international defence industry.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #7
Thank you very much!
A very informative post, it seems that I have gotten a few things wrong especially when it comes to the S-Darter.
Do you know what name the ramjet powered AAM that is supposedly in development is called?
Again thank you for shedding some light on this
EDIT: Oryx do you happen to have any info on Project CAVA/Carver?
I have seen some speculations about it on various forums but nothing really usefull.
A very informative post, it seems that I have gotten a few things wrong especially when it comes to the S-Darter.
Do you know what name the ramjet powered AAM that is supposedly in development is called?
Again thank you for shedding some light on this
EDIT: Oryx do you happen to have any info on Project CAVA/Carver?
I have seen some speculations about it on various forums but nothing really usefull.
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Sorry for the delay in replying, but work is keeping me from the internet these days...
Zmaj, I can't really answer your first question, principally because I don't know. In the media it has been named as S-Darter and T-Darter (as I said, S-Darter here is not to be confused with V3S), but I don't have any more detail on it since I am not personally involved with it.
On Carver: Yes, I know a bit about it, although it was slightly before my time in the industry. The project got cancelled in the late 80s after the actual design went through several major layout changes. It never really went beyond the initial design phase, although this stage did include extensive wind tunnel testing on a few of the proposed layouts. What the project did, however, was to motivate the acquisition of one of the finest closed circuit medium speed wind tunnels in the world that has more than paid its way on other projects over the years. This tunnel is still the flagship of the 10+ wind tunnels at the CSIR in Pretoria. As an interesting aside, the name "Carver" came from an automatic codename generator, but the media again assumed it must be CAVA which must be some sort of acronym. It still causes a chuckle among those involved whenever someone refers to it as CAVA. All the documentation on this project is still regarded as sensitive for some reason (possibly because no-one thought the need to de-classify it), and therefore again you won't find too much details of it. This obsession with secrecy in the SA industry certainly is a bit annoying, especially for researchers and historians, but I guess it makes sense for a small industry that has to protect its own IP and keep the edge in the small number of specific areas where it has one.
Stimpy, yes, I have also seen several articles that refer to the two missiles as being the same, but as I said they were parallel developments with common roots, rather than a continuous joint development. As another interesting aside, while the apartheid government in SA had very strong links with Israel, the new government tries to be much more balanced in its treatment of mid-East countries. This means that technical cooperation between Israel and SA has really decreased to the point of being almost non-existant.
Zmaj, I can't really answer your first question, principally because I don't know. In the media it has been named as S-Darter and T-Darter (as I said, S-Darter here is not to be confused with V3S), but I don't have any more detail on it since I am not personally involved with it.
On Carver: Yes, I know a bit about it, although it was slightly before my time in the industry. The project got cancelled in the late 80s after the actual design went through several major layout changes. It never really went beyond the initial design phase, although this stage did include extensive wind tunnel testing on a few of the proposed layouts. What the project did, however, was to motivate the acquisition of one of the finest closed circuit medium speed wind tunnels in the world that has more than paid its way on other projects over the years. This tunnel is still the flagship of the 10+ wind tunnels at the CSIR in Pretoria. As an interesting aside, the name "Carver" came from an automatic codename generator, but the media again assumed it must be CAVA which must be some sort of acronym. It still causes a chuckle among those involved whenever someone refers to it as CAVA. All the documentation on this project is still regarded as sensitive for some reason (possibly because no-one thought the need to de-classify it), and therefore again you won't find too much details of it. This obsession with secrecy in the SA industry certainly is a bit annoying, especially for researchers and historians, but I guess it makes sense for a small industry that has to protect its own IP and keep the edge in the small number of specific areas where it has one.
Stimpy, yes, I have also seen several articles that refer to the two missiles as being the same, but as I said they were parallel developments with common roots, rather than a continuous joint development. As another interesting aside, while the apartheid government in SA had very strong links with Israel, the new government tries to be much more balanced in its treatment of mid-East countries. This means that technical cooperation between Israel and SA has really decreased to the point of being almost non-existant.