IAF search for fighters to replace mig-21, 23, 27 zeroes in on f-16, mig-29 , mirage 2000- 5.IAF is planing to acquire 150 odd fighters to replace about 300 migs. Front runner is locky martins f-16 because of its on time delivery promise and tot promise. however russias mig-29 with similarties to su-30mki not for behind. but personally i feel these r no match to mirage 2005 :smokingc:
search for fighters.
- Thread starter mizoram
- Start date
The IAF is not interested in the F-16 due to logistics complications. The likely winner is most likely the M2K. However the IN will probably end up with 66 Mig 29'smizoram said:
The IAF is already overstretched on multiple platform support issues, the whole reason for the replacement is to minimise platform and logistics complexities. The F-16 is only in there as a token gate for the US. - There is no substance in the rumour.
Gf i don't think India would actually be able to purchase 120 plus mirage 2005 mk2 i think they may end up upgrading there exsiting 40 plus to 2005 and then keep the rest as mirage 2000 they have SU to do the job of high tech i am sure the AWACS would fill in the GAPs for the 2000 bearing in mind the Mirage 2000 are not bad At all§gf0012 said:
"Flying Sukhoi is far too expensive"
There have been a few comments in here about the Gripen being unavailable due to american engines. If you read the article, you'll find that there is no embargo on the engines at all.
This article relates to the Brasilian AF requirement for a new front line fighter. It's worth considering as it provides some clear perspective on the Gripen (which I personally like as it's a good effective all rounder, agile and with one of the best radar systems in the business.
"Flying Sukhoi is far too expensive"
CEO of the Anglo Swedish fighter jet criticizes the Russian aircraft, attacks Mirage of the consortium Embraer/Dassault e guarantees the transfer of technology if they win FAB's bidding of US$ 1 billion.
Joaquim Castanheira e Marco Damiani
CEO of Gripen International, Ian McNamee, landed on Wednesday, Jan. 14th, with the purpose of conducting two strategic discussions. He met with the Swedish and British Ambassadors to discuss one specific item: how to increase the chances of Gripen, manufactured by the Anglo-Swedish consortium SAAB-BAE SYSTEMS, in the bidding US$ 1 billion promoted by FAB. Nothing is easy. Fighter jet of latest generation, the Gripen competes with the Mirage F-5/BR, manufactured in partnership with the Brazilian Embraer and the French Dassault - and in this competition (Gripen) faces a strong adversary called nationalism. Besides that, Gripen also faces the Russian Sokhoi that has the biggest flying range in the world among all fighter jets.
The Brazilian selection could be made before the end of this first semester. FAB has already issued a confidential document on the competitors and President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva created a working group to study the document. As soon as this group is formed, its members will have 60 days to conclude their work and, finally, the National Defense Council is to appoint the name of the fighter jet to be acquired, -- initially 12 units. The pressure over the bidding process drags on for about 3 years and grows bigger as it approaches the final decision. On the Gripen side, as this was made clear to Dinheiro, McNamee exerts his pressure. "To be nationalist is to choose what is best for the country", he sad. "Mirage is an old aircraft and Sukhoi has a very high operational cost". These are his rationale:
Dinheiro: Why Gripen?
Ian McNamee: The main requirement received from the Brazilian Air Force is that they want a multi-role aircraft. The aircraft should be able to attack an enemy, defend the territory and exert surveillance of borders. Our aircraft meets all these requirements - with advantages over the competitors.
Dinheiro: Some people say that your aircraft is unsuitable to the continental sizes of Brazil, because of its short-range.
McNamee: Gripen's range is very similar to Mirage and F-16. I accept that in relation to Sukhoi, the range of our aircraft is shorter. However, Sukhoi is 3 times bigger than all competitors and needs 3 times more fuel to operate. Another criticism that I have seen is that Gripen cannot be refueled during flight. Untrue. Our fighter jet carries a complete system of refueling during flight.
Dinheiro: Is there an economic advantage of Gripen over its competitors?
McNamee: Cost of hour/flight of Gripen is extremely low. I could mention, as a reference, that Gripen costs about US$ 2,300, while this cost goes up to about US $ 8,000 for the F-16 and US $ 25,000 to Sukhoi. This means, to fly a Gripen is 10 times less expensive than a Sukhoi.
Dinheiro: Gripen is praised by its avionics. Please comment on its radars and other equipments.
McNamee: Everything is of latest generation. Everything is digital. The aircraft can be operated with precision in accordance with each operation. Compared with other aircrafts, our radars have more range than any other. The Swedish government delivered to the Brazilian government documents of performance of these radars and its capabilities. In comparison with the Mirage, our radar is 5 times more powerful.
Dinheiro: Mirage is the choice. Is this why the aircraft is on your line of fire?
McNamee: I don't know. I read several articles about the bidding, talk to various persons and in some instances I hear people talking about Mirage. Sometimes I hear a lot about Sukhoi. I guess Mirage could be our main competitor, because of Embraer, a world class leading company.
Dinheiro: Embraer claims that only Dassault, the manufacturer of Mirage, is going to transfer technology do Brazil.
McNamee: This is not true
Dinheiro: Are you willing to transfer technology.
McNamee: I want to emphasize that I don't know exactly what kind of technology transfer Embraer is talking about. Is it new technology. Is it old? I have no idea. We are prepared to transfer the technology of the most advanced software used in the aircraft. Our proposal to the Brazilian government gives all details about everything we would like to transfer. What we are going to transfer should allow the Brazilians to control the weapon systems that they are going to use.
Dinheiro: With Gripen, is Brazil able to open source-codes and therefore be able to control software?
McNamee: Yes. It is part of our proposal the transfer of technology which also includes the creation here in Brazil of a Gripen Development Center.
Dinheiro: Gripen engine is made in the United States - and the Americans do not transfer technology. Isn't this an insuperably limitation?
McNamee: We use a basic General Electric engine that is modified and developed by Volvo in Sweden. There is no embargo over these engines. GE is present in Brazil and is able to provide technical assistance.
Dinheiro: What about the weapons? Gripen uses American weapons.
McNamee: In our proposal, we offered a wide range of non-US weapons. They include weapons made in Israel, Sweden, South Africa and, even, French weapons. They are all part of the Gripen weapon system. Our aircraft can carry them, recognize them and works with them without any problem.
Dinheiro: Gripen is considered a small aircraft. Isn't this a problem?
McNamee: One thing people seem to forget is that Gripen was designed to operate in areas without any infrastructure. Gripen can land in roads and remote areas. Its complete refueling on the ground takes about 15 minutes. Gripen is an aircraft that does not need air bases and major infrastructure. It was developed to undertake operations with maximum efficiency.
Dinheiro: Embraer claims that they have reached the highest stages of its subsonic capabilities. Is Gripen willing to teach Embraer to fly above the sound speed?
McNamee: If we have a long term relationship with Brazil and if Embraer becomes our partner - especially if we are talking about the acquisition of up to 100 aircrafts -- , we would have no problem in showing Embraer how to develop supersonic technology within the company and give support so that they could support Gripen in Brazil.
Dinheiro: Have you had contacts with Embraer?
McNamee: No, but if we are selected, we are open to discussions provided we have the agreement of the Brazilian government. So far, Embraer has not asked us anything. When are have tried a contact through SAAB, the company chaired by Mr. MaurÃcio Botelho told they were not available at this point in time.
Dinheiro: What else is Gripen offering?
McNamee: our aircraft is on its early stages of life. First delivery of such aircraft started now, some 4 months ago. What we are offering Brazil is an export version of an aircraft that is likely to be in operation for the next 30, 40 years, and to be used by several countries. I don't believe Mirage will stay in operation for the next 30, 40 years. Mirage does not simply have a path for upgrades. I would like to say that Mirage is not a bad aircraft. I just think that is it an old aircraft. It is an aircraft of an old generation.
Dinheiro: In the purchase we see a major emphasis on the offset proposal that is being offered by the competitors. How is your proposal in relation to the offset?
McNamee: What I can say is that we offered an offset that is at least the same amount of the bidding. It consists of an offset directly related to the aircraft. It is related to the willingness of Swedish and British companies to invest in Brazil. With both the experience of BAE Systems and SAAB, we have about 40 years of experience in offset programs. We never failed to comply with our obligations related to offset. We spent some 4 years investing in Brazil working with different companies through the offset principle. We should be able to do a fantastic work. We feel absolutely normal that governments seek offset in a purchase of such nature.
Dinheiro: This bidding is dragging for about 3 years. Isn't this a stressing situation?
McNamee: Yes. Everything related to the process is stressing. Decisions involving a selection such as this are very complex. And there is no easy decision. We operate in various parts of the world and in all countries we live this difficult situations.
Dinheiro: There is in the government a strong sense of nationalism. Is it possible that the bidding is already decided in favor of Embraer?
McNamee: There is always such possibility. But nationalism does not mean you are going to choose something old and call it a national champion. Nationalism, in my view, is to chose what guarantees the future. We made an excellent offer to the Brazilian government. FAB has studied our aircraft thoroughly, in detail and with great expertise. I am convinced that the evaluation was a correct one and technically very competent.
Dinheiro: What is your view on the quality of the work done?
McNamee: FAB personnel that we have had contact are among the best we know around the world. They never believed in what we say until they check the facts by themselves during tests of the aircraft to be sure everything was true. Brazil sent to Sweden 3 outstanding pilots. They underwent tests to the limits of the aircraft.
Dinheiro: It is estimated that a fighter jet, without the weapons, could cost about US$ 30 million. Is it correct?
McNamee: Yes, depending on the configuration, this is a quite reasonable figure.
Dinheiro: What is the Gripen business performance?
McNamee: In July we offered Gripen to the Czech Republic and before Christmas we were selected to supply 14 aircrafts. To South Africa we sold 28. In the world, we placed 54 aircrafts in the last 4 years
Dinheiro: If you are selected, how long do you need to deliver the aircrafts?
McNamee: We need 36 months to deliver the first and more 12 months to deliver to complete the supply of the 12 fighter jets.
There have been a few comments in here about the Gripen being unavailable due to american engines. If you read the article, you'll find that there is no embargo on the engines at all.
This article relates to the Brasilian AF requirement for a new front line fighter. It's worth considering as it provides some clear perspective on the Gripen (which I personally like as it's a good effective all rounder, agile and with one of the best radar systems in the business.
"Flying Sukhoi is far too expensive"
CEO of the Anglo Swedish fighter jet criticizes the Russian aircraft, attacks Mirage of the consortium Embraer/Dassault e guarantees the transfer of technology if they win FAB's bidding of US$ 1 billion.
Joaquim Castanheira e Marco Damiani
CEO of Gripen International, Ian McNamee, landed on Wednesday, Jan. 14th, with the purpose of conducting two strategic discussions. He met with the Swedish and British Ambassadors to discuss one specific item: how to increase the chances of Gripen, manufactured by the Anglo-Swedish consortium SAAB-BAE SYSTEMS, in the bidding US$ 1 billion promoted by FAB. Nothing is easy. Fighter jet of latest generation, the Gripen competes with the Mirage F-5/BR, manufactured in partnership with the Brazilian Embraer and the French Dassault - and in this competition (Gripen) faces a strong adversary called nationalism. Besides that, Gripen also faces the Russian Sokhoi that has the biggest flying range in the world among all fighter jets.
The Brazilian selection could be made before the end of this first semester. FAB has already issued a confidential document on the competitors and President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva created a working group to study the document. As soon as this group is formed, its members will have 60 days to conclude their work and, finally, the National Defense Council is to appoint the name of the fighter jet to be acquired, -- initially 12 units. The pressure over the bidding process drags on for about 3 years and grows bigger as it approaches the final decision. On the Gripen side, as this was made clear to Dinheiro, McNamee exerts his pressure. "To be nationalist is to choose what is best for the country", he sad. "Mirage is an old aircraft and Sukhoi has a very high operational cost". These are his rationale:
Dinheiro: Why Gripen?
Ian McNamee: The main requirement received from the Brazilian Air Force is that they want a multi-role aircraft. The aircraft should be able to attack an enemy, defend the territory and exert surveillance of borders. Our aircraft meets all these requirements - with advantages over the competitors.
Dinheiro: Some people say that your aircraft is unsuitable to the continental sizes of Brazil, because of its short-range.
McNamee: Gripen's range is very similar to Mirage and F-16. I accept that in relation to Sukhoi, the range of our aircraft is shorter. However, Sukhoi is 3 times bigger than all competitors and needs 3 times more fuel to operate. Another criticism that I have seen is that Gripen cannot be refueled during flight. Untrue. Our fighter jet carries a complete system of refueling during flight.
Dinheiro: Is there an economic advantage of Gripen over its competitors?
McNamee: Cost of hour/flight of Gripen is extremely low. I could mention, as a reference, that Gripen costs about US$ 2,300, while this cost goes up to about US $ 8,000 for the F-16 and US $ 25,000 to Sukhoi. This means, to fly a Gripen is 10 times less expensive than a Sukhoi.
Dinheiro: Gripen is praised by its avionics. Please comment on its radars and other equipments.
McNamee: Everything is of latest generation. Everything is digital. The aircraft can be operated with precision in accordance with each operation. Compared with other aircrafts, our radars have more range than any other. The Swedish government delivered to the Brazilian government documents of performance of these radars and its capabilities. In comparison with the Mirage, our radar is 5 times more powerful.
Dinheiro: Mirage is the choice. Is this why the aircraft is on your line of fire?
McNamee: I don't know. I read several articles about the bidding, talk to various persons and in some instances I hear people talking about Mirage. Sometimes I hear a lot about Sukhoi. I guess Mirage could be our main competitor, because of Embraer, a world class leading company.
Dinheiro: Embraer claims that only Dassault, the manufacturer of Mirage, is going to transfer technology do Brazil.
McNamee: This is not true
Dinheiro: Are you willing to transfer technology.
McNamee: I want to emphasize that I don't know exactly what kind of technology transfer Embraer is talking about. Is it new technology. Is it old? I have no idea. We are prepared to transfer the technology of the most advanced software used in the aircraft. Our proposal to the Brazilian government gives all details about everything we would like to transfer. What we are going to transfer should allow the Brazilians to control the weapon systems that they are going to use.
Dinheiro: With Gripen, is Brazil able to open source-codes and therefore be able to control software?
McNamee: Yes. It is part of our proposal the transfer of technology which also includes the creation here in Brazil of a Gripen Development Center.
Dinheiro: Gripen engine is made in the United States - and the Americans do not transfer technology. Isn't this an insuperably limitation?
McNamee: We use a basic General Electric engine that is modified and developed by Volvo in Sweden. There is no embargo over these engines. GE is present in Brazil and is able to provide technical assistance.
Dinheiro: What about the weapons? Gripen uses American weapons.
McNamee: In our proposal, we offered a wide range of non-US weapons. They include weapons made in Israel, Sweden, South Africa and, even, French weapons. They are all part of the Gripen weapon system. Our aircraft can carry them, recognize them and works with them without any problem.
Dinheiro: Gripen is considered a small aircraft. Isn't this a problem?
McNamee: One thing people seem to forget is that Gripen was designed to operate in areas without any infrastructure. Gripen can land in roads and remote areas. Its complete refueling on the ground takes about 15 minutes. Gripen is an aircraft that does not need air bases and major infrastructure. It was developed to undertake operations with maximum efficiency.
Dinheiro: Embraer claims that they have reached the highest stages of its subsonic capabilities. Is Gripen willing to teach Embraer to fly above the sound speed?
McNamee: If we have a long term relationship with Brazil and if Embraer becomes our partner - especially if we are talking about the acquisition of up to 100 aircrafts -- , we would have no problem in showing Embraer how to develop supersonic technology within the company and give support so that they could support Gripen in Brazil.
Dinheiro: Have you had contacts with Embraer?
McNamee: No, but if we are selected, we are open to discussions provided we have the agreement of the Brazilian government. So far, Embraer has not asked us anything. When are have tried a contact through SAAB, the company chaired by Mr. MaurÃcio Botelho told they were not available at this point in time.
Dinheiro: What else is Gripen offering?
McNamee: our aircraft is on its early stages of life. First delivery of such aircraft started now, some 4 months ago. What we are offering Brazil is an export version of an aircraft that is likely to be in operation for the next 30, 40 years, and to be used by several countries. I don't believe Mirage will stay in operation for the next 30, 40 years. Mirage does not simply have a path for upgrades. I would like to say that Mirage is not a bad aircraft. I just think that is it an old aircraft. It is an aircraft of an old generation.
Dinheiro: In the purchase we see a major emphasis on the offset proposal that is being offered by the competitors. How is your proposal in relation to the offset?
McNamee: What I can say is that we offered an offset that is at least the same amount of the bidding. It consists of an offset directly related to the aircraft. It is related to the willingness of Swedish and British companies to invest in Brazil. With both the experience of BAE Systems and SAAB, we have about 40 years of experience in offset programs. We never failed to comply with our obligations related to offset. We spent some 4 years investing in Brazil working with different companies through the offset principle. We should be able to do a fantastic work. We feel absolutely normal that governments seek offset in a purchase of such nature.
Dinheiro: This bidding is dragging for about 3 years. Isn't this a stressing situation?
McNamee: Yes. Everything related to the process is stressing. Decisions involving a selection such as this are very complex. And there is no easy decision. We operate in various parts of the world and in all countries we live this difficult situations.
Dinheiro: There is in the government a strong sense of nationalism. Is it possible that the bidding is already decided in favor of Embraer?
McNamee: There is always such possibility. But nationalism does not mean you are going to choose something old and call it a national champion. Nationalism, in my view, is to chose what guarantees the future. We made an excellent offer to the Brazilian government. FAB has studied our aircraft thoroughly, in detail and with great expertise. I am convinced that the evaluation was a correct one and technically very competent.
Dinheiro: What is your view on the quality of the work done?
McNamee: FAB personnel that we have had contact are among the best we know around the world. They never believed in what we say until they check the facts by themselves during tests of the aircraft to be sure everything was true. Brazil sent to Sweden 3 outstanding pilots. They underwent tests to the limits of the aircraft.
Dinheiro: It is estimated that a fighter jet, without the weapons, could cost about US$ 30 million. Is it correct?
McNamee: Yes, depending on the configuration, this is a quite reasonable figure.
Dinheiro: What is the Gripen business performance?
McNamee: In July we offered Gripen to the Czech Republic and before Christmas we were selected to supply 14 aircrafts. To South Africa we sold 28. In the world, we placed 54 aircrafts in the last 4 years
Dinheiro: If you are selected, how long do you need to deliver the aircrafts?
McNamee: We need 36 months to deliver the first and more 12 months to deliver to complete the supply of the 12 fighter jets.
Who knows really? but the Sukhois fulfill a different role, and India knows that the Mirages have a higher sortie rate, better reliability etc even though they are more expensive.adsH said:
The French are keen to get a hi-lo mix in place where Mirages deliver on the ground attack, ground support role. Sukhois and Mig-29's are not the best platforms for high tempo ground intensive work. There are a few mirage users who have been looking for customers (except they are F.1's I believe)
Like most things, it's a wait and see issue.
i wanted ask you this the UAE mirage 2009 since F-16 block 60 are comming, any word on what UAe plans to do with those AC( mirage 2009) i would imagine caring for those two different and expensive AC would be too hard there sortie rate from what i have heard is not allot there airspace is realy smal,l them having so many 4th gen ac would be mismanagement of resources i think they were looking for AWACS!!gf0012 said:
i had always thought mirage 20 were good for ground atack roles but they could pass as adequate air defense. do you actually see the Uae deploy those two mixes of the opposites in different roles like f-16 air defense and mirages as ground roles. but i think those mirages would have a low resale value theyre highly customized to use weapons sytems developed by UAE.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
From what I've read, the Mirage 2000-9 are true multi-role aircraft, equally adept at Air to ground as they are at air to air. What I think gf was referring to was that India possesses a good air to air combat aircraft already, namely the SU-30. What they need to develop further is their air to ground capacity and the Mirage would provide that, plus proide an excellent air to air combat capability in it's own right, if needed. A dual force of Su-30 and Mirage 2000-9, supported by smaller numbers of other aircraft such as Jaguar would provide a VERY effective air combat capability. One thing that comes to mind though. Would India still require the LCA if it bought Mirages? I would doubt it, particularly given the numbers of Mirages that may be purchased and the planned numbers of SU-30's that will eventually reach operational service. That was an interesting article gf. I think the Brazilians should opt for the Gripen, myself. The Gripen is a very capable little aircraft and would confer a true "swing-role" capability onto the FAB. Plus I believe the Brazilians operate the Erieyre AWACS. The Gripen is extremely well integrated with this platform and would provide a high level network centric warfare capability to the FAB. I have no doubt the AWCS system is already integrated with it's ground based air defence system and the Gripen should inetgrate well with this too. I don't see that either the Mirage or the SU-30 would offer a greater capability for the Brazilians than the Gripen. It's probably the most affordable too.
Aussie Digger said:
affordable in the sense of cheaper logistical cost. more familiarization to the tech i would think. pluss i have seen what gripens can do lol they don't even need properly prepped air strips they can fly from a nice country road which would do it for them. lower taxi distance and fast takeoff with high rate of climb brilliant for a fast responsive air defense. most of all they can be hid under a tree or in garage i would mind that get up in the morning kiss the wife good bye off to work after breakfas. open the garage door pull the grippen out and then fly to work rather than drive!!! why drive when you can fly.
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