Saudia will purchase 300 AL-KHALID tank
- Thread starter super7fc1
- Start date
topic: will purchase
text start: show interest
text later: most likely
saudi guys validated the al khalid already, they don't need to go to an arms show to visit it. moreover the reports from the saudi desert about the pak tank are not that good, the tank had massive probs with the heat.
regards
axl
www.kampfpanzer.de
text start: show interest
text later: most likely
saudi guys validated the al khalid already, they don't need to go to an arms show to visit it. moreover the reports from the saudi desert about the pak tank are not that good, the tank had massive probs with the heat.
regards
axl
www.kampfpanzer.de
The news seems to be genuine.
Just heard on ARY One World that Pakistan will be handing over Al-Khalid Tanks to Saudi Arabia next summer. Their source of news is an ISPR Release. ARY never said anything about the numbers or the scope of the deal.
I think that this news will be widely reported within few hours.
Just heard on ARY One World that Pakistan will be handing over Al-Khalid Tanks to Saudi Arabia next summer. Their source of news is an ISPR Release. ARY never said anything about the numbers or the scope of the deal.
I think that this news will be widely reported within few hours.
Looks like some movement on Al-Khalid Tank and Saudi interest in it.
Quote:
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 15, 2006
Saudi Arabia to trial Al Khalid MBT
Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent
Islamabad
The Saudi armed forces are due in April to begin trialling the MBT 2000 Al Khalid main battle tank (MBT), manufactured by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila. Islamabad is hoping that this will lead to the conclusion of the country's first large MBT export deal, Pakistani defence sources told Jane's.
The Saudi desert trials come almost two years after the Royal Saudi Army expressed interest in purchasing a batch of the newly developed Al Khalid, which is powered by a 6TD-2 1,200 hp diesel engine manufactured by the Ukrainian Malyeshev tank plant. Pakistan signed a USD150 million contract with the Malyeshev plant in early 2002 for the supply of 6TD-2 series engines.
Pakistani defence officials said that if the tests are successful, Saudi Arabia could buy up to 150 Al Khalids in a deal worth up to USD600 million. This would be the largest single export contract of its kind ever for Pakistan's emerging defence industry.
The Al Khalid is of conventional layout, with the driver's compartment at the front, turret in the centre and the power pack at the rear. In many respects it appears to be almost identical to the Chinese Norinco Type 90-II MBT. The turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm.
The armour is of modular design, enabling the user to change damaged modules or replace the existing models with new armour packages as the threat evolves or as new technology becomes available.
The Al Khalid's main armament is a 125 mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. The gun is fed by an automatic loader, enabling the crew to be reduced to three: commander, gunner and driver. The Pakistan Ordnance Factories have manufactured ammunition for the 125 mm smoothbore gun for several years, including armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot and high-explosive fragmentation types.
As originally developed, a total of 39 rounds of 125 mm ammunition of the separate loading type were carried (projectile and charge), of which 22 rounds were in the automatic loader for ready use. However, as a result of recent modifications an additional 10 rounds of ammunition can be carried, bringing the total up to 49 rounds. Vehicles already completed will be brought up to this latest production standard and carry a total of 49 rounds of 125 mm ammunition.
A 7.62 mm machine gun is mounted coaxially with the main armament and a 12.7 mm machine gun is mounted on the roof for anti-aircraft and local defence purposes. Mounted either side of the turret, towards the rear, is a bank of four electrically operated forward-firing smoke grenade dischargers. A turret basket is provided at the rear.
The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunner's sight, bi-axis stabilised commander's sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander's control panel, laser rangefinder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor, allowing the Al Khalid to engage moving targets under day and night conditions.
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
Quote:
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 15, 2006
Saudi Arabia to trial Al Khalid MBT
Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent
Islamabad
The Saudi armed forces are due in April to begin trialling the MBT 2000 Al Khalid main battle tank (MBT), manufactured by Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila. Islamabad is hoping that this will lead to the conclusion of the country's first large MBT export deal, Pakistani defence sources told Jane's.
The Saudi desert trials come almost two years after the Royal Saudi Army expressed interest in purchasing a batch of the newly developed Al Khalid, which is powered by a 6TD-2 1,200 hp diesel engine manufactured by the Ukrainian Malyeshev tank plant. Pakistan signed a USD150 million contract with the Malyeshev plant in early 2002 for the supply of 6TD-2 series engines.
Pakistani defence officials said that if the tests are successful, Saudi Arabia could buy up to 150 Al Khalids in a deal worth up to USD600 million. This would be the largest single export contract of its kind ever for Pakistan's emerging defence industry.
The Al Khalid is of conventional layout, with the driver's compartment at the front, turret in the centre and the power pack at the rear. In many respects it appears to be almost identical to the Chinese Norinco Type 90-II MBT. The turret and hull are of all-welded steel armour construction and an additional layer of composite armour has been added over the frontal arc, to which explosive reactive armour can be added if required. Turret thickness at the front is estimated to be 600 mm with the glacis/nose estimated to be 450 to 470 mm.
The armour is of modular design, enabling the user to change damaged modules or replace the existing models with new armour packages as the threat evolves or as new technology becomes available.
The Al Khalid's main armament is a 125 mm smoothbore gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. The gun is fed by an automatic loader, enabling the crew to be reduced to three: commander, gunner and driver. The Pakistan Ordnance Factories have manufactured ammunition for the 125 mm smoothbore gun for several years, including armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot and high-explosive fragmentation types.
As originally developed, a total of 39 rounds of 125 mm ammunition of the separate loading type were carried (projectile and charge), of which 22 rounds were in the automatic loader for ready use. However, as a result of recent modifications an additional 10 rounds of ammunition can be carried, bringing the total up to 49 rounds. Vehicles already completed will be brought up to this latest production standard and carry a total of 49 rounds of 125 mm ammunition.
A 7.62 mm machine gun is mounted coaxially with the main armament and a 12.7 mm machine gun is mounted on the roof for anti-aircraft and local defence purposes. Mounted either side of the turret, towards the rear, is a bank of four electrically operated forward-firing smoke grenade dischargers. A turret basket is provided at the rear.
The computerised fire-control system includes a bi-axis stabilised dual magnification gunner's sight, bi-axis stabilised commander's sight with hunter killer capability, computer, commander's control panel, laser rangefinder, crosswind sensor, tilt sensor and angle velocity sensor, allowing the Al Khalid to engage moving targets under day and night conditions.
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
Last edited:
Scorpius questions are valid and I don't pretend to know the awnser but would be suprised if it was better than an M1.
However I suspect politics have something to do with it, Saudi Arabia have a tradition of not relying on one country for military equipment. Its Airforce teded to have UK and USA equipment Tornado's and F15's. Its army French and USA, AMX30's and M1's.
This would be a good reason for going with the Al-Khalid
However I suspect politics have something to do with it, Saudi Arabia have a tradition of not relying on one country for military equipment. Its Airforce teded to have UK and USA equipment Tornado's and F15's. Its army French and USA, AMX30's and M1's.
This would be a good reason for going with the Al-Khalid
Royal Saudi Land Force Abrams MBTs are to the A1 standard and RSLF has looked into A2 upgrades. There have been a number of servicability problems however, yet this in many ways is to be expected given the advanced nature of the Abrams and in particular its powerplant.
In respects to Al Khalid, a purchase would not surprise me, as Glider says Saudi likes to diversify its equipment sources - and purchases from fellow Muslim nations are always encouraged.
RSLF's 4th Armoured Brigade currently operates French AMX-30 MBTs that are showing their age and becoming mechanicaly demanding on time and resources. Whether Al Khalid will be purchased to replace these is open to question. Afterall, the RSLF have always seemed keen on a Le Clerc purchase.
In respects to Al Khalid, a purchase would not surprise me, as Glider says Saudi likes to diversify its equipment sources - and purchases from fellow Muslim nations are always encouraged.
RSLF's 4th Armoured Brigade currently operates French AMX-30 MBTs that are showing their age and becoming mechanicaly demanding on time and resources. Whether Al Khalid will be purchased to replace these is open to question. Afterall, the RSLF have always seemed keen on a Le Clerc purchase.
I'm going to get some Saudi source material for this, but although the 8th Armoured Brigade's Abrams were indeed part of the M1-A2 production batch, those destined for Saudi never originally incorporated the advanced fire control, sight and datalink upgrades that the A2 offered over the A1. Thus, the current fleet is effectively A1 standard.
In rergards to numbers, we should not forget that when it comes to whole MBT fleet, large numbers of them are held in storage. This is mainly due to a lack of trained crews, yet on the upside RSLF War Maintenance Reserves are plentiful.
In rergards to numbers, we should not forget that when it comes to whole MBT fleet, large numbers of them are held in storage. This is mainly due to a lack of trained crews, yet on the upside RSLF War Maintenance Reserves are plentiful.
I don't think that this is correct. The Le Clerc did not get a satisfactory "happy report" from the only other arabic client. The Saudis turned cold after that - even though they were basically offered a build price rather than an export price.Izzy1 said:
I can't find the stored link where that info was as its fallen off google cache. IIRC I think it was from Middle East News Limited.
The FrenchGov/GIAT have made multiple approaches in the last 12 months. The French were even lowering the price to what many considered to be just above cost price.Izzy1 said:
The principle issue is that the other Middle Eastern client has not been totally happy with the platform. FrG/GIAT also tried to lift the other clients order to no effect. It has suffered reliability issues.
If the tank was almost at cost plus fractional margin - then that means that a new approach would be either cost neg or amortised against other sales.
GIAT cannot afford to sell at cost neg as the company is struggling with sustained sales across the board - that means that the Principle Partner/Owner has to absorb the loss. and thats unlikey considering that GIAT have already reduced Fr Armee orders and have retrenched staff.
As for amortising against other defence items - I seriously have doubts as to what they can do it against. It looks as though the BAE Typhoon sale will move forward - and that will probably be at the expense of Rafale - unless Saudi Arabia wants to stick itself in a logistic nightmare and have multiple (unnecessay) support lines. That tends to make any hardware related sales either SAMs or Naval related (as the next big ticket items to amortise costs against)
Nationalised companies don't like amortising sales against small cap items - its harder to guarantee recovery of revenue if the margins are shaky.
Couldn't agree more GF. RSLF has better options open to it than Le Clerc, but then again I would say that from an admittedly bias perspective.
We should see some movement on the Typhoon deal within the next several months - one of the main sticking points at the moment is the final number involved for the first batch of Tranch II aircraft and Saudi is seeking firm assurances in regards to industrial offsets.
The potential for further equipment orders associated within the new UK-Saudi deal (expect the Al Yamamah name to be dropped for any future deal) are also being explored with Hawk 100 LIFT and major C4I contracts already being pursued. The Tornado Sustainment Programme is also now signed and underway.
In respect to this thread and Saudi armoured systems, BAE Land Armaments have identified a market in Saudi alone worth some 10 Billion GBP. These could be interesting times in regards Saudi procurement.
We should see some movement on the Typhoon deal within the next several months - one of the main sticking points at the moment is the final number involved for the first batch of Tranch II aircraft and Saudi is seeking firm assurances in regards to industrial offsets.
The potential for further equipment orders associated within the new UK-Saudi deal (expect the Al Yamamah name to be dropped for any future deal) are also being explored with Hawk 100 LIFT and major C4I contracts already being pursued. The Tornado Sustainment Programme is also now signed and underway.
In respect to this thread and Saudi armoured systems, BAE Land Armaments have identified a market in Saudi alone worth some 10 Billion GBP. These could be interesting times in regards Saudi procurement.
I was getting various feeds that the Saudis were also interested in ex stock Challys. The main attractant being that:Izzy1 said:
- surplus to UK requirements
- battle proven - esp against Le Clerc
- reliable - esp against Le Clerc
- regarded as better armoured than DU armoured Abrams - so definitely superior to existing export model Abrams in service.
the main sticking point again is the wagon train - they either offload their existing Abrams to the Kuwaitis, or they end up with multiple loggie problems running an extra MBT supply chain.
The other problem being that the only ones who will take the AMX-30's as a trade in are the french. Nobody else will have them as they can't offload them except perhaps to some tinpot dictator in Africa. (I mean look at the second hand market - you can buy an ex Warpac T-72's for $50k USD - add on polish or israeli ERA and you have a short term survivable MBT - not the best for a Kursk scenrio - but still suitable for clearing and smearing in a protected battlefield)
I think the Saudis have some huge nightmares about to hit their loggie and trg radar screens - and they really don't want to talk about in the open as they know that it's going to get messy.
Historically the house of Saud has been closer to the UK than the French or the US - so I can't see the UK missing out on much. I suspect that the French are going to have to try and trade with the smaller arabic states - and probably the "less desirables with less volume buying" leverage.
I'm not saying that they will, I'm saying that its possible due to a number of issues:Supe said:
- US relationship is fractious - they've been moving away from the US since the relationship started to degrade. Thats why there is an open willingness and clearly articulated display of political symbolism to go out and actively court UK and French weapons/systems manufacturers
- The Chally2 is regarded as the superior MBT
- Too many difficulties selling off the AMX-30's. They either get sold back to the french as a trade in (and GIAT is more likely to do that than anyone else as they can onsell them to other AMX client users like the Sth Americans) - or arms dealers buy them - whcih exacerbates the current frostiness between them and the US and brings in the other irritant of the UN oversiting good citizenship issues. etc...
- Their Abrams are export models anyway - so are detuned and less comprehensively armoured - easier to sell them to an existing M1 export user like the Kuwaitis and at least get some return on investment.
- Buying Al Khalids is expected as it supports the Pakistani economy and for not much outlay on their part. It reinforces support for each other (Pakistan and SA) without costing them a bundle to do so.
- If they keep the Abrams and buy the Chally2's then they effectively have 4 x MBT types in service. 2 of type is bearable. 4 is idiotic as it makes a nonsense of efficiency and provides no extra capability. The days of having grades of tank for types of expected warfighting died after WW2, and certainly when airborne warfare was revisted.
ME arms trading is a nightmare in progress generally. Its not and never has been cut and dried. The ones who seem to have consistency of purpose and process are the Jordanians. for the others, it can be a shambles (harsh but true)
Last edited: