Saudi Arabia, Pakistan Eye Joint AEW Buy

gf0012-aust

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Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are discussing a joint purchase of 14 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft based on Sweden�s Saab 2000 regional airliner and the Erieye radar and sensor suite by Ericsson Microwave Systems, according to an analyst specializing in South Asian military affairs.

In an Oct. 29 interview from Kuala Lumpur, Prasun Sengupta estimated the aircraft would cost up to $1.7 billion, the bulk of which would be funded by Saudi Arabia in exchange for in-country training of Saudi crews by Pakistani Air Force personnel.

The prospective deal, which he characterized as in advanced stages of negotiation, envisions seven aircraft for Saudi Arabia and seven for Pakistan. Used Saab 2000s would be refurbished with the Ericsson AEW&C system. As part of the package, Pakistan also would receive seven basic Saab 2000s, which would be upgraded for use by its national airline, Pakistan National Airlines, and Saudi Arabia would acquire an additional three or more used Saab 2000s for spare parts, Sengupta said.

�Since the [Saab 2000] production line is closed, these aircraft will be bought back from regional operators and sent for depot-level maintenance to bring the airframe and the engines back to zero-life � practically mint condition,� Sengupta said.

�Then Ericsson, as a subcontractor to Saab, will install and integrate its Erieye system, which has already been validated in this aircraft.�

A Pakistani purchase of AEW aircraft would follow India�s recent acquisition of similar Israeli planes, while Saudi Arabia may be looking to replace its 1980s-vintage Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft.

Saab spokesman Peter Larsson confirmed the discussions with Pakistan, but declined comment on whether there were any talks under way involving the Saudis. However, several European sources confirmed there are talks under way on unspecified defense deals between the Swedes and Saudi Arabia.

Ericsson declined to comment on the matter, and Swedish defense officials did not respond to requests for comment. A Pakistani diplomat in Washington said he had no knowledge of the deal.

Sengupta said he was �100 percent certain� of the joint Saudi-Pakistani discussions with Saab and other industry partners. He said his information was verified by Swedish and European industry sources in Kuala Lumpur and by participants in Pakistan�s International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS 2004) held Sept. 14-17 in Karachi, Pakistan.

Pakistani Press Reports

Since Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistani president and Army chief of staff, visited Stockholm in July, various Pakistani media outlets have published reports of an imminent purchase of at least six of the Saab/Erieye AEW&C planes.

A mid-July report in the Pakistan Times also noted that Musharraf�s visit paved the way for a visit later that month by Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, chief of staff of the Pakistani Air Force. According to the paper, Saadat was expected to pick up where Musharraf left off with regard to technical aspects of the deal.

Sengupta�s assessment, however, is the first that links Saudi Arabia with Pakistan in the prospective AEW&C deal. The analyst said that the Swedish government had approved the sale, notwithstanding its policy of denying weaponry to regions of conflict, since the Saab 2000 is a commercial aircraft and the Erieye AEW&C system is defensive in nature.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have been close strategic allies since the early 1970s, when a Pakistani Air Force squadron was deployed in the Saudi kingdom to assist air defense operations. A 2003 defense cooperation agreement has led to contracts to supply Saudi forces with Pakistani-built Al-Khalid tanks, Super Mushhak trainers, armored personnel carriers and Baktar Shikan wire-guided anti-armor missiles.

�Pakistan has always been there to meet the military needs of Saudi Arabia,� said Shireen Mazari, the director general of the Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad. �The two countries have been for some time sharing intelligence, holding joint military exercises and exchanging defense technology.�

Most regional analysts believe that the two neighboring states have been fulfilling each other�s needs; Pakistan supplies defense technology and training, the oil-rich kingdom provides cash.

�The Kingdom has always provided big financial support to Pakistan,� said Anwar Eshki, chief executive of the Jeddah-based Middle East Center for Strategic and Legal Studies. �Saudi officials wish to benefit from Pakistani military expertise and defense technology.�

Saudi Arabia also has been the main source of energy to Pakistan, which is another main reason for Islamabad to develop a �unique relationship� with Riyadh, said Talat Masood, an Islamabad-based defense analyst and a retired Pakistani Army lieutenant general.

Response To Phalcon?

Israeli industry and defense sources could not confirm the existence of talks on a joint Saudi-Pakistani AEW&C procurement deal.

�We have no information on these discussions, but it wouldn�t surprise me. It sounds like a realistic response to our sale of the Phalcon to India,� an Israeli defense official said. He was referring to the $1.1 billion, three-aircraft sale of advanced AEW&C aircraft by Elta Systems to the Indian Air Force, which was concluded in early 2004.

When reporters at the IDEAS event in Karachi asked Pakistan�s Saadat about Indian-Israeli cooperation, he said, �We have no right to object to close relations between India and Israel, but we have concerns and are fully aware of our defense needs.�

Sengupta said the prospective Saudi-Pakistani AEW deal could prompt the Indian Air Force to exercise an option to buy an additional three Phalcons from Israel by 2007.

�In light of the impending acquisition of the Saab/Erieye by Pakistan, it is more or less a foregone conclusion that New Delhi will exercise options for an additional three Israeli AEW aircraft.�

AWACS Alternative

The Israeli official noted that Tel Aviv and its U.S. congressional supporters likely would object to a repeat of the multibillion-dollar U.S. sale to Saudi Arabia of five Boeing 707-based AWACS aircraft, a deal finalized in 1981 after contentious and protracted debate between the executive and legislative branches of the U.S. government.

Deliveries of those aircraft were completed in 1987, and Boeing announced in September 2003 that it had completed a $60 million upgrade to the fleet�s mission computers and other hardware and software for the Saudi fleet.

A Washington industry source who follows U.S. export licensing matters said the U.S. State Department likely would limit any kind of follow-on package that the kingdom might have sought from Boeing and the U.S. Air Force.

�Getting the data is one thing, but when it comes to acquiring the final synthesized picture, that�s where the degree of control is very high,� the U.S. source said. �The Saudis won�t have access to this, and that could be one of the reasons for seeking an alternative.�

A European industry source said the U.S. company is in talks with the Saudis about a further round of upgrades on the 707s.

Boeing officials say they are unaware of the Saudi-Pakistan discussions with Sweden. But Dave Sloan, a company spokesman, said Boeing �continues to support our Saudi customers and are ready to talk to them about any further requirements.�

But, the European source said, one of the options was to ditch the E-3s and purchase a new system. While the Saab 2000, normally a 50-seat airliner, has shorter range and endurance than a Boeing aircraft, air warfare experts say the Erieye system is highly capable.

Its active, phased-array, electronically scanning and dual-side looking radar has an instrumented range of 450 kilometers and is able to detect multiple fighter-sized targets from 350 kilometers or more.

Saab sources defended the choice of aircraft, saying the 2000 has a highly automated �glass cockpit� and an endurance of up to nine hours.

The Swedes also have also offered the 2000 to Malaysia, competing against the Ericsson-equipped Embraer 145 and the Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye for a four-aircraft, $1 billion sale, a Saab executive said. •

Andrew Chuter contributed to this report from London, Riad Kahwaji from Dubai, Gopal Ratnam from Washington, and Pierre Tran from Paris.

--0--

By BARBARA OPALL-ROME, TEL AVIV

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mysterious

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Doesn't surprise me 'if' true! But I have my reservations to commenting on this report, atleast till I see something happening for real and not some article based on somewhat 'wishful thinking' of Indian and Israeli writers who love joining self selected patches of material to piece up a nice juicy story together. Lets see what really happens and if this so-called deal goes through (if there is one present in the first place) or not. :smokingc:
 

adsH

New Member
did say this was goign to happen sometime back !!! remember people, and every one dismissed it as rumors, i also did say Malaysia wanted to be apart of the deal, its basically because some of the countries in this deal have expertise and some money they all will benefit with a common training program and a common maintenance facility. the operational cost would be shared by all three. the networking capability between these two or possibly three countries would be huge.

Saudi's have been evaluating the French rafael too (Year 2000), and pakistan was evaluating those too, Saudis want to buy those in a large volume so pakistan would get the Rafael for a lowered unit price if they chose to go forword with the deal.
 

gf0012-aust

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  • #4
mysterious said:
Doesn't surprise me 'if' true! But I have my reservations to commenting on this report, atleast till I see something happening for real and not some article based on somewhat 'wishful thinking' of Indian and Israeli writers who love joining self selected patches of material to piece up a nice juicy story together. Lets see what really happens and if this so-called deal goes through (if there is one present in the first place) or not. :smokingc:
Actually Myst, the source is a reputable International Military News source - just because the author is Israeli doesn't change the validity of it.

I could have posted the Middle East Newslink (Arab owned) version but selected this one as the strike rate is usually higher.
 

adsH

New Member
its got some stuff wrong unless it has sources within the Saudi acquisition team. its said the Saudis have have contracted the Pakistanis for there Alkhalids, this hasn't happened has it?
 

gf0012-aust

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adsH said:
its got some stuff wrong unless it has sources within the Saudi acquisition team. its said the Saudis have have contracted the Pakistanis for there Alkhalids, this hasn't happened has it?
If you've noticed, that part of the post was quoted as being from Pakistani Press Reports.

Most mil media sources I know are loathe to comment on Pakistani acquisitions or proposed purchases as announced in the local media - as the local press has a striking track record for getting information wrong - as a lot of people in here could attest.

As for me, I will only look at Pakistani mil announcements if they come from the Govt or have independant supporting comments from International agencies.
 

mysterious

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
mysterious said:
Doesn't surprise me 'if' true! But I have my reservations to commenting on this report, atleast till I see something happening for real and not some article based on somewhat 'wishful thinking' of Indian and Israeli writers who love joining self selected patches of material to piece up a nice juicy story together. Lets see what really happens and if this so-called deal goes through (if there is one present in the first place) or not. :smokingc:
Actually Myst, the source is a reputable International Military News source - just because the author is Israeli doesn't change the validity of it.

I could have posted the Middle East Newslink (Arab owned) version but selected this one as the strike rate is usually higher.
Yeah I guess, but its difficult to say anything about this deal as it almost seems like a top secret deal (if its going through) and we'd only be able to shed light on it if something becomes visible.
 

gf0012-aust

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If it is true, then I reckon they've tapped the wrong aircraft - the Embraer is a better platform - and proven for this kind of work over a long period of time.
 

highsea

New Member
GF, this is exactly what I thought the first time I heard about this plan. The last Saab 2000 was delivered 5 years ago. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to induct a platform that is out of production. Pakistan will put 1/2 of the airplanes in commercial service, but where will the spares come from to keep them flying 5 or 10 years from now?

The 145 is certainly going to be smoother and quieter, and would probably just as economical in the long run. I don't understand the logic in selecting the 2000, other than a cheaper initial outlay.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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I don't really understand the choice of a twin prop as opposed to a jet like the Embraer either. The 2000 is going to have a significantly lower cruise speed than the Embraer and a lot less, "get the hell out of dodge" run capability should things turn nasty too...

It's also been out of production for a while and I should imagine the Embraer will be a bit easier to maintain due to it's current production? I guess the 2000 must be significantly cheaper than the jet, cause I can't see any other real benefits...
 

gf0012-aust

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Aussie Digger said:
I don't really understand the choice of a twin prop as opposed to a jet like the Embraer either. The 2000 is going to have a significantly lower cruise speed than the Embraer and a lot less, "get the hell out of dodge" run capability should things turn nasty too...
It appears to be a decision based on economics. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be running station in a turboprop.

The other thing is that turboprops haven't been popular due to NVH issues. - they can be considerable and will impact on crew efficiency over extended periods. India tried it with their HS748 and discovered pretty quickly that it wasn't an ideal "soft cruiser". The HS748 was also a mature platform, so it's not as if it was a lemon. You'd lose a few kilo's/pounds after a long mission. ;)
 

adsH

New Member
lol has anyone been one of these Saab 2000 turbo props, its weeared that they chose the platform but the choice was made ages ago its been ten-years PAF has been negotiating this deal.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
pLUS!(i WANNA GLOAT! :D: [every bit of info I put here during the course of the last year is being confirmed] anybody mind if I do :p )
I told you guys about this as soon as that ERIEYE deal thingy surfaced earlier this year, some indian members dismissed it as either rumors or wishful thinking, now here we have gary confirming it.Wish I'd visited the site earlier cause I've just returned from a dinner where some of my sources were present(I could have asked them about the validity of the platform choice).Well better leave it for some other time as it's Ramadan and that means loads of dinner parties(u guys get the drift ;) )
 

SABRE

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gf0012-aust said:
Pakistan also would receive seven basic Saab 2000s, which would be upgraded for use by its national airline, Pakistan National Airlines.
Well there is only one wron thing in this report. There is no PAKISTAN NATIONAL AIRLINES, its PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES (PIA). ;)
 

gf0012-aust

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SABRE said:
gf0012-aust said:
Pakistan also would receive seven basic Saab 2000s, which would be upgraded for use by its national airline, Pakistan National Airlines.
Well there is only one wron thing in this report. There is no PAKISTAN NATIONAL AIRLINES, its PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES (PIA). ;)
Actually, It's Pakistan National Airlines Corporation (PIAC), As exampled below http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-9-2002_pg5_4. It is referred to as PIA - Pakistan International Airlines by the IATA - the world body for international air travel.

PIA to pay Rs 6.5b to CAA

By Arshad Hussain

KARACHI: Pakistan National Airlines Corporation (PIAC), the national carrier, shall pay dues of Rs 6.5 billion to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) after releasing Term Finance Certificates (TFC), according to Air Marshal (Retd) Aliuddin, director general, CAA while talking to members of the press after an MoU was signed between the UAE and Pakistan on Monday.

“We shall not write-off a single penny for PIA till the government’s directives come through,†he said.

He also said Pakistan’s open skies policy shall not be changed for other airlines, but the CAA is negotiating with nine Middle Eastern countries to reduce PIA’s losses caused by a loss of customers to other airlines. He said the federal government has refused to change the policy for international flights. He said the CAA had been expecting a profit of Rs 5.1 billion this year, but this target could not be achieved because of September 11.

Earlier on, Mr Aliuddin, DG CAA, and Shaikh Khalfan Saeed Al-Mazrui, director general, Private Department, and Shaikh Zayed Bin Sultan Al-Nahyan, president, UAE and rulers from Abu Dhabi signed an MoU in Karachi for the upgradation of the Rahimyar Khan Airport for B-747 aircraft operations.

The airport shall serve as an another alternate landing facility for wide body aircraft operating on a number of domestic and international routes.

/example off


and a history of Pakistan International Airlines is available from here:

http://www.historyofpia.com/

Official Web Site:

http://www.piac.com.pk/
 

adsH

New Member
PIA has too much corruption as it is. there top level management are taking away large bonuses and salaries even tho the firm is in trouble i hope they end up fixing this.
 

mysterious

New Member
So whats the progress on this? Anyone got any recent info as to if the Erieyes are coming or not and has there been an order placed for Saab 2000 aircrafts? Its frustrating when suddenly all leads to a story disappear only to appear later when the tide has passed. Maybe Gary can provide some insight in to this?
 

adsH

New Member
they are still in advance negotiations, i doubt the US offer for the E2 2000 would affect this deal since Saudis want to foot the bill for the better part of the deal. i can imagine what kind of comlicated negotiations would have to be negotiated.Locations of the training facility repair facilities personnel cost from each-others budgets.
 

Kurt Plummer

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Some things that come to mind as being 'worth mentioning'.

As the article itself mentioned, the 'Peace Shield' ADGE/IADS integration process was slow, long and painful, most likely because of Israeli influences within the the U.S.. I'm not sure it really works, even now.

The U.S. refusal to integrate foreign products within any closed-loop exsiting network (the Korean F-15K vs. Rafale Mk.2 deal comes to mind as being the most recent), along with their obdurate and seemingly 'random' attitudes on things like source vs. object codes and 'once a year' updates in response to local changes in threat operating modes (for both EW and Sensor systems) etc. tends to piss off a lot of second tier export clients that still paid top dollar for their gear.

We are also not in anyway above ELINTing other people's gear (or worse) from within the privileges of our technical presence in a host nation.

As such, the (on the surface) ludicrous notion of trying to train in Pakistan's relatively compressed airspace when you have effectively 'two Texas' worth of Empty Quarter to run around in starts to make more sense.

As does the notion of continuing to hold connections with the Paks on the basis of 'shared contact, training and technical means' past debits (anyone wonder where as much as what the heads on those Eastwinds come from?). Certainly if Pakistan is to be weened away from Iran it will still help the Saudi's to have a certain pre-existing knowledge base of ex-Chinese 'shared data packages' regarding short/medium range missile and warhead technologies that they could be facing from across the Gulf.

And of course, as with most things the Saudi royals and the U.S. are not /quite/ as far apart as they may seem such that gaining a little breathing room separation of interests in the public eye may actually also help both sides maintain face while dealing undertable cards like riverboat poker 'through each intermediary' (U.S.->Saudi->Pakistan, U.S.->Pakistan-Saudi) as necessary.

I also wonder if the U.S. is not playing Pakistan much like they are undoubtedly (partisan corruption throughout their intel agencies) doing to us over getting Al Quaeda and Osama and Zarkawi. As long as we are there, so is the potential inherent to our money and 'strategic interest' with India (the whole blow up at the border last fall was likely just engineered hooplah to see how 'commited' we were).

Having a secondary Muslim partner and non-national AEW&C may well be a matter of both ensuring a backup plan in case the U.S. pulls out and of getting (covert U.S. through Saudi Banks) finance for a capability that we don't want to let out so long as things like the F-17 and French Mirages etc. are still on the table.

In terms of turboprops, well of course you don't like big honkin nacelles and spinning prop disks in the line of sight for your PS-890. And the R-99 trades some of that (tiplets) for fuselage positioning and wing sweep.

However; turboprops do offer some exceptional advantages in payload:weight:altitude combinations _for Mach point_ cruise. And can actually out-endure a jet under many operational conditions. Of course they also (low AR wing with lots of high lifts) have superb short field + HnH options. At least our E-2 does (I believe it still holds several time to climb with payload records, for class). Better to move a big mass of slow air over a big nacelle than compress a small mass of air through a tiny cylinder aft of it.

In terms of absolute altitude and lookin on the threat, well, here you just can't beat the total wing area and thrust trust effects of a VLA. Most people who haven't seen a KC-135 or 10 pull away from a poor-boom-behavior F-teen like a rocket headed for space just have /no idea/ how much residual 'mil' power these aircraft have at altitude over just about any thing out there. Makes you glad for the rests as your eyeballs stretch towards the glass of the boomer station.

This is probably also a contributory reason why the Saudis and Paks are being allowed to 'get away with' (as much as from) a U.S. sponsored=electronics controlled BMC3/AEW&C platform.

For as long as their ability to also act as cross border ISR platforms is limited by LOS and grazing angle (as well as the basic PS-890 operating modes which, to my knowledge, only include basic sea search atop their standard A2A modes); these platforms will not be as worrisome to folks in India and Israel and thus the U.S. can 'pretend' to show a blind eye and deaf ear to their purchase (it's still dangerous if we expect to sell MP-RTIP and the RQ-4, at least to Saudi).


KP
 
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