Sad end for the Spruance class...

[contedicavour]

I've just checked what is the status of the 31 Spruance class destroyers decommissionned by the USN, some of which hardly had 25 years in service.

3 ships are being kept for potential transfer to Turkey and Pakistan, 2 are test ships, 1 is being transformed into a museum. Almost all the others have already been sunk as targets !! At current rate , and considering Turkey and Pakistan don't seem to be interested, in a couple of years all but the musem and the 2 test ships will have disappeared underwater.

This seems to me a huge waste of resources... all European deleted FFGs have been sold second hand to foreign navies, and most deleted DDGs with < 35 years in commission are to be shortly put on sale. The USN could have done quite a good deal by selling Spruances to Taiwan, Korea, Turkey (with SM-2 though, otherwise useless), Greece ... At a time when defence budgets are strained everywhere (even in the US), seeing 30 recent and very good destroyers sunk as targets is a monument to waste

 

[rickusn]

"This seems to me a huge waste of resources... all European deleted FFGs have been sold second hand to foreign navies, and most deleted DDGs with < 35 years in commission are to be shortly put on sale. The USN could have done quite a good deal by selling Spruances to Taiwan, Korea, Turkey (with SM-2 though, otherwise useless), Greece ... At a time when defence budgets are strained everywhere (even in the US), seeing 30 recent and very good destroyers sunk as targets is a monument to waste."


As usual you are way out of line.

What DDG's????

And what fool. would buy them?????

A European frigate built in the 1980's/90's is a different animal compared to a 1970's built Spruance.

Furthermore no other nation can really afford to operate and maintain them.

In fact the USN offered these ships to the above mentioned natons except S. Korea which is building new ships.

However the offer has not been acted upon by those nations because of the reason stated above.

Mod edit: Behave Gentleman. There's no need to act like this. AD.

 

[tatra]

I would agree a sad end to an otherwise succesfull class of ships. For what it especially is good at (ASW), it is too big and manpower intensive for most other navies.

I'm sure these ships have final value even in sinkex. Yet, I wonder why some equipped is left onboard, which could be recycled onto other vessels foreign or domestic (e.g. 5" gun, NSSM SAM launcher, Mk41 vls units).

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/sinkex6.jpg

 

[AegisFC]

I've seen several of these decommed, and on a few of the ships they stripped off everything, and on some they just took off the antennas and radars.
The VLS and the guns may still be on during the sink-ex because a lot of that equipment is in the same place and has the same layout as on the Tico's, that still have quite a bit of service left.
Still I think it is pathetic that those ships are all gone and ships left in reserve are even older and not really taken care of at all.

 

[contedicavour]

"This seems to me a huge waste of resources... all European deleted FFGs have been sold second hand to foreign navies, and most deleted DDGs with < 35 years in commission are to be shortly put on sale. The USN could have done quite a good deal by selling Spruances to Taiwan, Korea, Turkey (with SM-2 though, otherwise useless), Greece ... At a time when defence budgets are strained everywhere (even in the US), seeing 30 recent and very good destroyers sunk as targets is a monument to waste."

What DDG's????

And what fool. would buy them?????

A European frigate built in the 1980's/90's is a different animal compared to a 1970's built Spruance.

Furthermore no other nation can really afford to operate and maintain them.

In fact the USN offered these ships to the above mentioned natons except S. Korea which is building new ships.

However the offer has not been acted upon by those nations because of the reason stated above.

SINKEX's are extremely important and useful.

Mod edit: Behave Gentleman. There's no need to act like this. AD.

Secondly, you'd better think twice before writing such nonsense as that no other navy would be able to man a Spruance. A Spruance's crew is 360, not that much more than a 290 for a Knox class FFG or the 300 needed to man the WW2 vintage DEs still in service in several countries. Regarding maintenance costs, don't tell me it costs more to service an old steam propulsion plant on a Knox than the Spruance's more modern machinery.
Last but not least, reason why Spruance haven't been taken by allied countries is that the US isn't willing to export SM2s, not even in its basic versions (nobody is saying that you should be handing over the latest SM2IIIB or SM3). Besides, since you did give Taiwan Kidds with SM2s, what's all the fuss about stopping such sales ??

Mod edit: Relax. I've warned him. Just concentrate on the discussion if still interested. Cheers. AD.

 

[Aussie Digger]

First of all learn to be polite, insulting people doesn't get you any smarter :ban
Secondly, you'd better think twice before writing such nonsense as that no other navy would be able to man a Spruance. A Spruance's crew is 360, not that much more than a 290 for a Knox class FFG or the 300 needed to man the WW2 vintage DEs still in service in several countries. Regarding maintenance costs, don't tell me it costs more to service an old steam propulsion plant on a Knox than the Spruance's more modern machinery.
Last but not least, reason why Spruance haven't been taken by allied countries is that the US isn't willing to export SM2s, not even in its basic versions (nobody is saying that you should be handing over the latest SM2IIIB or SM3). Besides, since you did give Taiwan Kidds with SM2s, what's all the fuss about stopping such sales ??
If you manage to overcome your tendency to insult people, it may be interesting to discuss this, based on facts only.

Er, RAN just (in 2005) bought 175x SM-2 Block IIIA missiles via FMS from the US to equip our Adelaide Class FFG's from 2009 and as you pointed out has sold SM-2 to Taiwan and SM-2 Block IIIB to Japan. Apparently the US doesn't have any problems selling it to it's allies...

 

[Waylander]

We also operate SM-2 on our "Sachsen" FFGs.
But the question is not to which allies they export them but to which countrys else.

 

[beleg]

3 ships are being kept for potential transfer to Turkey and Pakistan, 2 are test ships, 1 is being transformed into a museum. Almost all the others have already been sunk as targets !! At current rate , and considering Turkey and Pakistan don't seem to be interested, in a couple of years all but the musem and the 2 test ships will have disappeared underwater.

According to latest unofficial but probably true news, Turkey has refused the Spruances.

 

[contedicavour]

According to latest unofficial but probably true news, Turkey has refused the Spruances.

Thanks for the information ! It's a bit of a shame, a Spruance with its LM2500 gas turbines would have been much better than the Knox FFs still in service. The VLS could have been used at least for Evolved Sea Sparrow and ASROC, if for some budgetary or political reason SM2 hadn't been accessible.

cheers

 

[tatra]

ehm, gents, what's all this talk about SM2 in the context of Spruances?
It mentions these http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd963class.htm, but that's about the only source a quick search has yielded. I always thought the VLS was for ASROC and Tomahawk only. And AFAIK Spruances don't have the fire control radars necessary for SM2 missile guidance (unless through CEC, in which case the Spruances served as additional floating SAM magazines for AEGIS equipped vessels like the Tico's and Burke's). AFAIK use of SM2 from a Spruance would require refitting it with different illuminators radars and possibly changes to the fire control system.

Kidd class alltogether different because fitted for and with Standard missile from the start (different radars, different missile launchers compared to Spruance, much closer to the early Tico's)

 

[Sea Toby]

We are going to see more and more early retirements from the American Navy in the future. While the ships are designed to last 30 years, the guidance radars and combat data weapons systems are ageing quicker than the ships. Any American surface warship which do not receive many upgrades in their service lives will be dropped after the twenty year point. The American Congress will continue to prefer new shipbuilding over service life extension programs, especially for second rate frigates classes.

While the rest of the world treasures their frigates, the American navy and Congress don't. Much more of treasure are their aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers.

 

[icelord]

We are going to see more and more early retirements from the American Navy in the future. While the ships are designed to last 30 years, the guidance radars and combat data weapons systems are ageing quicker than the ships. Any American surface warship which do not receive many upgrades in their service lives will be dropped after the twenty year point. The American Congress will continue to prefer new shipbuilding over service life extension programs, especially for second rate frigates classes.

While the rest of the world treasures their frigates, the American navy and Congress don't. Much more of treasure are their aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers.

And when the littorals Combat ships are done, you could expect a massive wash out of ships mothballed, and perhaps an increase in the order?

 

[Big-E]

And when the littorals Combat ships are done, you could expect a massive wash out of ships mothballed, and perhaps an increase in the order?

The LCS is the replacement for OHPs and Spruances in regards of ASW. OHPs stopped being integral to AAW long ago while Spruance never was a factor. The Spruance strike capability is transfered to ABs right now but will be transfered to Zumwalts and CGXs in the future.

In regards to your question, LCS has mission packages making her needed in a rather large order. The loss of so many ships in the fleet will have to be made up of LCS hulls or the force total will fall below recomended levels. We can't afford enough DDG-1000s or CG(X)s at their projected price tags to make it.

 

[contedicavour]

ehm, gents, what's all this talk about SM2 in the context of Spruances?
It mentions these http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd963class.htm, but that's about the only source a quick search has yielded. I always thought the VLS was for ASROC and Tomahawk only. And AFAIK Spruances don't have the fire control radars necessary for SM2 missile guidance (unless through CEC, in which case the Spruances served as additional floating SAM magazines for AEGIS equipped vessels like the Tico's and Burke's). AFAIK use of SM2 from a Spruance would require refitting it with different illuminators radars and possibly changes to the fire control system.

Kidd class alltogether different because fitted for and with Standard missile from the start (different radars, different missile launchers compared to Spruance, much closer to the early Tico's)

You are right that the Spruance weren't meant as AAW DDGs and that SM-2s cannot be used to full range with existing sensors. Still, a limited update (as you suggest, with the appropriate illuminators) would be enough to control SM2s. AFAIK illuminators are the only element missing though, since the VLS launchers are capable of supporting SM2s. I've even read that SM2s have been launched from the latest Spruance (and guided by Ticonderogas or Burkes).

cheers

 

[tatra]

I've even read that SM2s have been launched from the latest Spruance (and guided by Ticonderogas or Burkes).

cheers

That's what I was thinking. But this renders them of little use in AAW role for any non-US navy, which has no other ex-USN ships to team the used Spruance with i.e. they must do an AAW refurb. or stick with the originally ASW optimized - but AAW limited - ship fit. And for ASW, most non-US navies go with smaller ships.

 

[rickusn]

No Source. No points.

 

[ren0312]

The LCS is the replacement for OHPs and Spruances in regards of ASW. OHPs stopped being integral to AAW long ago while Spruance never was a factor. The Spruance strike capability is transfered to ABs right now but will be transfered to Zumwalts and CGXs in the future.

In regards to your question, LCS has mission packages making her needed in a rather large order. The loss of so many ships in the fleet will have to be made up of LCS hulls or the force total will fall below recomended levels. We can't afford enough DDG-1000s or CG(X)s at their projected price tags to make it.

A little off topic but does the US plan to keep its defence budget constant as a per centage of GDP in the future? Because your projected budget, say may affect your fleet numbers in the future.

 

[Big-E]

A little off topic but does the US plan to keep its defence budget constant as a per centage of GDP in the future? Because your projected budget, say may affect your fleet numbers in the future.

They do plan on it, but the procurement budget is going to have to be well above that to meet hull requirements. That's the problem. I have seen the mix and match they were playing in a white paper. Let's just say I didn't like what I saw... me = Carrier man.