Russian Technology

[Jade]

Many in the forum have referred to Russian Defence equipment as junk.

Well, Russian subs have palnted a flag deep under the arctic, a major feat that not many countries can match.

The SU-30 MKI with the Indian Air Force is one of the best in the world.

The Smerch MBRL is also one of the best.

The S400 seems quite good too.

The Bulava missile sounds awesome.

The T-90 tank is quite good too.

The AK-47, well even the Americans have copied it !!!

The Akula sub -- wow !!!

What more to say !!!

 

[10ringr]

Many in the forum have referred to Russian Defence equipment as junk.

Well, Russian subs have palnted a flag deep under the arctic, a major feat that not many countries can match.

The SU-30 MKI with the Indian Air Force is one of the best in the world.

The Smerch MBRL is also one of the best.

The S400 seems quite good too.

The Bulava missile sounds awesome.

The T-90 tank is quite good too.

The AK-47, well even the Americans have copied it !!!

The Akula sub -- wow !!!

What more to say !!!

If it weren't for a Russian named Igor Sikorsky the US wouldn't have enjoyed the technical achievments that he contributed and not just to us but to the world.

S400 may be a bit early to know it's potential. S300 is good

No doubt about their tanks. They have good tanks.

The chief differences beyond the equipment which of course matters is the quality of the training and the men that give of themselves so others may live freely, to speak and to say what they believe.

I am always being accused of being ill informed because I'm old enough to remember the cold war and consider Russia a Super Power then and now. For what it's worth websters dictionary supports this and if you ask me when a country can destroy the US utterly and completely then to not consider them a Super Power is to not grasp the profound challenges we've faced and are continuing to face.

The SU-30M
The Soviet Union was found to have superior rocket engines which after 25 years of being covered up we found that their design was superior 25 years ago and even today in terms of channeling fuel back through the system.

I believe with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the difficulty in securing their border and their obvious monetary challenges their military will continue to shrink however they will and are producing highly capable military equipment from new SUB/SLBM's and let's face it while the Akula and Typhoons are still formidable, they are older but Russia is replacing them. They have more Boomers then we do and focus a great deal on very powerful subs with Nuclear capable cruise missiles and tring to squeeze Bulava in them or a variant! Renovating the vaunted TU-160's, the Bulava which with 10+ MIRV's and an incredible CEP it sounds like the SS-18 Satan only accurate! FRIGHTENING. The only thing we can do is develop ABM's which I highly support. So please don't think for a minute that I'm knocking Russian equipment. Early on they did copy much of our equipment, this is not a bone of contention, it is a historical fact but they have paid the price to be where they're at and Putin (Mr. X-KGB) is cracking down on the freedoms that were finally beginning to happen in Russia and besides we all copies Germany from their ME jets to their V2's etc. Hutch

 

[Gollevainen]

Russian/soviet military hardware being junk is more of western myth than actual reality.

Its true that in technological sophistication levels russians may not be as development than western counterparts in some sectors but that doesen't make it "junk". Often the systems looks rugged and unappealing but looks hardly make difference in military equipments. Also in many sectors the solutions and operational doctrines are so different that some western systems doesen't have counterpart in russia as they are choosen other ways to deal with the issue. This is also seen in the case where in otherhand russians have fielded stuff that has no western counterparts.

Saying some military hardware is junk makes me first think that they doesen't work. I've never operated any russian high technological systems, only basic weapons like Kalashnikoviks and artillery systems. And needless to say those stuff did work. I Know its a cliché but russian equipment is rudgiment, hardass stuff that works in every given conditions even with the smallest ammount of maintenance. I withnessed this with Kalashnikovik and with D-30 several times. We had alot small proplems with the 155K98's associated systems like sohpisticated Isreali radios, american firecontrol computers and even (tough it feels like treason to say this) with the gun's breech mechanism and hydraulic....

.....But with Kalashnikoviks we managed to shoot them with mud and pinecones inside the box and with D-30 with some poor drivers cloves between the piggie and charge...

Well, Russian subs have palnted a flag deep under the arctic, a major feat that not many countries can match

Thougth the two Mini-subs of the Mir class werent Russian, but desinged and build here in Finland

 

[f-22fan12]

Many in the forum have referred to Russian Defence equipment as junk.

Well, Russian subs have palnted a flag deep under the arctic, a major feat that not many countries can match.

The SU-30 MKI with the Indian Air Force is one of the best in the world.

The Smerch MBRL is also one of the best.

The S400 seems quite good too.

The Bulava missile sounds awesome.

The T-90 tank is quite good too.

The AK-47, well even the Americans have copied it !!!

The Akula sub -- wow !!!

What more to say !!!

Russia faces one problem with its tech: Russia can't afford it. Russia was in a financial crisis. Now they are pulling out. Once they have money again (high oil prices) they will be able to actually buy large quantaties of the hi-tech. stuff they develop. They have good tech. they just need money. (which they don't have alot of)

1. The Sukhoi 30 MKI is an amazing plane. Yet it's not all Russian. There are Israeli and European avionics/subsystems on board. That makes the plane alot better. Therefore, I don't consider the Su-30MKI a fully Russian plane.

2. The S-400 is known as a top-of-the-line air defence system. So yes, it is a great achievment for them.

3. The Bulava is good, but they take FOREVER to deploy it.

4. The T-90 is a good, not great, tank. Nice and rugged. Carries on the Soviet tank tradition of durability. I believe the Challenger 2, Abrams, and Leopard 2 are better than the T-90.

5. The Akula sub is no special achievment. American subs during that time were quieter than their Soviet/Russian counterparts. And in sub warfare, silence is golden. I greatly dislike Russian subs. Their saftey record is terrible and they operate old worn down subs. (Foxtrot) Their fleet was in disrepair after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Alot of Russian military equipment today was researched and funded by the Soviets. Russian can't afford to spend the huge sums the Soviets did on defence. Therefore they won't have as big of an "edge" anymore.

Also one interesting fact is that the engine that powered the vaunted mig-15 was actually a pirated version of a British engine given to the Russians after WWII. The British government gave a top-of-the-line new jet engine to the Russians as a gesture of friendship right after WWII.

In conclusion, since Russia's R&D budget is alot smaller than the West's, their tech. won't be as good.

I never liked Russian defence equipment. (many of you know)

 

[Jade]

Russia faces one problem with its tech: Russia can't afford it. Russia was in a financial crisis. Now they are pulling out. Once they have money again (high oil prices) they will be able to actually buy large quantaties of the hi-tech. stuff they develop. They have good tech. they just need money. (which they don't have alot of)

Alot of Russian military equipment today was researched and funded by the Soviets. Russian can't afford to spend the huge sums the Soviets did on defence. Therefore they won't have as big of an "edge" anymore.

I never liked Russian defence equipment. (many of you know)

Thnx, great contribution.

But, India and Iran are desperate to play catch up technology wise, and are funding or collaborating with Russia who is also very keen on keeping up it's technology.

Ex: the Akula sub - I hear a couple of these will be given to India - all very sevret though - and may even be built in India !!

India's next gen fighter will be in collaboration with Russia - sometimes they say they have agreed to it and other times they say most probably will agree to it !!!

You did not comment on the Smerch MBRL - sounds bloody awesome !!

 

[f-22fan12]

Thnx, great contribution.

But, India and Iran are desperate to play catch up technology wise, and are funding or collaborating with Russia who is also very keen on keeping up it's technology.

Ex: the Akula sub - I hear a couple of these will be given to India - all very sevret though - and may even be built in India !!

India's next gen fighter will be in collaboration with Russia - sometimes they say they have agreed to it and other times they say most probably will agree to it !!!

You did not comment on the Smerch MBRL - sounds bloody awesome !!

Thanks. India and Russia have had good military relationships with each other for decades. During the Cold War they were friends and they are still friends now. Only difference is that India is also friends with the U.S.

Yes I've also heard that Russia will lease some Akulas to India. Remember that Russia has already leased a nuclear sub. ( I think a Charlie class) to India some years ago.

And yes, there is rumored to be cooperation between Russia and India on the new fighter aircraft. (Pak-Fa)

I am not familiar with the Smerch MBRL.

 

[Grand Danois]

In order not to get this thread derailed into a this vs that argument, I suggest that we focus on the virtues of Russian systems, i.e. "what I like about/the strengths of Russian systems".

I would like to highlight the S-300/S-400, which are technologically top notch and first class in the anti air role. If they were also integrated into a comprehensive sensor/battle management network, they would improve dramatically on the BMD side also. It is latent in them.

Tactical BMs like Iskander and Totchka is an area in which the Russians excel. I would even suspect that the US is beginning to adopt the tactics that Russia used in Chechnya, re the Totchka.

 

[f-22fan12]

In order not to get this thread derailed into a this vs that argument, I suggest that we focus on the virtues of Russian systems, i.e. "what I like about/the strengths of Russian systems".

I would like to highlight the S-300/S-400, which are technologically top notch and first class in the anti air role. If they were also integrated into a comprehensive sensor/battle management network, they would improve dramatically on the BMD side also. It is latent in them.

Tactical BMs like Iskander and Totchka is an area in which the Russians excel. I would even suspect that the US is beginning to adopt the tactics that Russia used in Chechnya, re the Totchka.

Will do. I also like the S-400 greatly. That whole line of systems is top notch as you said. Is it true the S-400 can detect stealth targets? If it can, WOW.

 

[10ringr]

Will do. I also like the S-400 greatly. That whole line of systems is top notch as you said. Is it true the S-400 can detect stealth targets? If it can, WOW.

Well that's the question isn't it? I don't know but I do know that so far there isn't a reliable and effective counter measure to Stealth or we'd be all over these pages talking about it wouldn't we. So as we are all creatures of facts and numbers then I personally don't believe the S-400 can magically shut down Stealth. If they've designed radars all of a sudden that can then you bet your *$*# we would hear about it. Not only that but the S-400 hasn't been deployed and isn't supposed to be until summer. It is then supposed to replaced the S-300 or it possilbly upgrades S-3 to S-4's. Hutch

 

[XaNDeR]

Not only that but the S-400 hasn't been deployed and isn't supposed to be until summer.

On 6th August 2007, the first division equipped with S-400 entered active service in Moscow Oblast' near town of Elektrostal, according to Channel One Russia.

 

[drandul]

There is differences in some approaches to same problems. And it's difficult to say witch is better. For example - S-300 system has the good (may be best) - (do not now about S-400 -I did not work with one) reaction time and tracking-homing capabilities even if technology it based on was from far- 70-s. In that time was difficult to achieve that processing capabilities using CPU- based systems (Like Patriot do). S-300 has very specific for it tasks distributed processing system based on very simple elements. Each of hundreds real time tasks, required high speed calculation and very low respond time had separate calculators, designed for only one task, some ones based on analog circuits. All that tasks are proceeding in same time. If you need to change way of task calculation - you need to change hardware modules. Maintenance is nightmare but if it works ones- it works forever. Each single component is very simple and that’s why very reliable. Less affected by EM noise and environment factors.
Other approach is like in Patriot using more common CPU (or (and) controller array) plus software approach. Respond time is reduced by improving CPU speed and software optimization. That way more universal, requires less time to change software. But only recently CPU processing systems are fast enough to solve tracking and homing tasks.
And actually S-200 already had capabilities to be integrated into battle management network. S-400 has capabilities to be part of global battle management system. Standard configuration of S-300 - several divisions are interconnected in to the network (optical link, radio-relay link) to share tracking information. Also that network includes early warning radar arrays with passive mode and semi- passive mode of monitoring in active battle mode A-50 linked as well.

F-22 has several factors, really makes it much better in terms of radar detection. But there are ways to overcome it. For example- it have really very good effective area of reflecting.- One of improvements- radar beam reflects in different way than back to radar because of hull shape. But if plane is highlighted from angle different than radar- receiver, receiver gets much more energy from target. Some time ago (2-3 years) couple of Russian research centre’s restored parametrical Diagram of reflection distribution of f22. Knowing this kind of distribution allows you to identify plane type by EM wave reflecting signature (Like subs could be identified by sound noise signature).
Well known early warning systems based on distortion of electromagnetic waves (in particular case in meter-length diapason) by objects in propagation environment. Plus network of electronics- optical detectors and tracking systems. - Similar systems control all space objects on earth orbit. All those systems are works in same network. I agreed that Russian technological level some times lower. But finally assets can solve same task by cutting-edge decisions and design.

 

[10ringr]

There is differences in some approaches to same problems. And it's difficult to say witch is better. For example - S-300 system has the good (may be best) - (do not now about S-400 -I did not work with one) reaction time and tracking-homing capabilities even if technology it based on was from far- 70-s. In that time was difficult to achieve that processing capabilities using CPU- based systems (Like Patriot do). S-300 has very specific for it tasks distributed processing system based on very simple elements. Each of hundreds real time tasks, required high speed calculation and very low respond time had separate calculators, designed for only one task, some ones based on analog circuits. All that tasks are proceeding in same time. If you need to change way of task calculation - you need to change hardware modules. Maintenance is nightmare but if it works ones- it works forever. Each single component is very simple and that’s why very reliable. Less affected by EM noise and environment factors.
Other approach is like in Patriot using more common CPU (or (and) controller array) plus software approach. Respond time is reduced by improving CPU speed and software optimization. That way more universal, requires less time to change software. But only recently CPU processing systems are fast enough to solve tracking and homing tasks.
And actually S-200 already had capabilities to be integrated into battle management network. S-400 has capabilities to be part of global battle management system. Standard configuration of S-300 - several divisions are interconnected in to the network (optical link, radio-relay link) to share tracking information. Also that network includes early warning radar arrays with passive mode and semi- passive mode of monitoring in active battle mode A-50 linked as well.

F-22 has several factors, really makes it much better in terms of radar detection. But there are ways to overcome it. For example- it have really very good effective area of reflecting.- One of improvements- radar beam reflects in different way than back to radar because of hull shape. But if plane is highlighted from angle different than radar- receiver, receiver gets much more energy from target. Some time ago (2-3 years) couple of Russian research centre’s restored parametrical Diagram of reflection distribution of f22. Knowing this kind of distribution allows you to identify plane type by EM wave reflecting signature (Like subs could be identified by sound noise signature).
Well known early warning systems based on distortion of electromagnetic waves (in particular case in meter-length diapason) by objects in propagation environment. Plus network of electronics- optical detectors and tracking systems. - Similar systems control all space objects on earth orbit. All those systems are works in same network. I agreed that Russian technological level some times lower. But finally assets can solve same task by cutting-edge decisions and design.

Makes frighteningly to much sense...... what equipment exactly are you talking about using to harvest the information? Hutch

 

[drandul]

Most information concerning S-300 from pvo.guns.ru/s300v/s300v.htm it's in Russian (sorry- I'm Russian) and my own experience .
If you mean equipment for reflection distribution diagram restoring- for that tasks as I remember they used quite simple methods like experimental full 3d combined frequency scanner with scale model of aircraft (it was done for different stealth-shaped assets)to get geometry dependable characteristics.
It was shown in one of Russian milTV program. It looks like two sets of gyro-stabilized hangers (for receiver and transmitter). That device allows to move t-er end r-er independently in all angles around target, which in the middle of frames. Reflection energy data collects for wide spectrum of frequencies -energies for each set of angles. Size of aircraft models used - several meters. Computer based model used together with basic geometry data to calculate exact parameters of aircraft with anti radar hull coating and real aircraft size taking into account.
As I know in Russia there is also technology of anti- radar coating based on modulation of permittivity in thickness of coating. So probably parameters of this kind of materials were used in model.
I'd assume it takes quite long time to parameterize single type of aircraft. - So generally this technique do not required real f22 but allows getting quite god characteristics. Of course result data may be not 100% equal to real aircraft data, but accuracy is adequate to task it was designed to.

 

[10ringr]

Most information concerning S-300 from pvo.guns.ru/s300v/s300v.htm it's in Russian (sorry- I'm Russian) and my own experience .
If you mean equipment for reflection distribution diagram restoring- for that tasks as I remember they used quite simple methods like experimental full 3d combined frequency scanner with scale model of aircraft (it was done for different stealth-shaped assets)to get geometry dependable characteristics.
It was shown in one of Russian milTV program. It looks like two sets of gyro-stabilized hangers (for receiver and transmitter). That device allows to move t-er end r-er independently in all angles around target, which in the middle of frames. Reflection energy data collects for wide spectrum of frequencies -energies for each set of angles. Size of aircraft models used - several meters. Computer based model used together with basic geometry data to calculate exact parameters of aircraft with anti radar hull coating and real aircraft size taking into account.
As I know in Russia there is also technology of anti- radar coating based on modulation of permittivity in thickness of coating. So probably parameters of this kind of materials were used in model.
I'd assume it takes quite long time to parameterize single type of aircraft. - So generally this technique do not required real f22 but allows getting quite god characteristics. Of course result data may be not 100% equal to real aircraft data, but accuracy is adequate to task it was designed to.

I see. You have a wonderful grasp on these things and to be able to convey it is impressive. Thanks, Hutch

 

[zetruz]

Agreed, very interesting information. Thanks drandul!

 

[Jade]

Thnx drandul. Putin tells India to be careful when exporting the Brahmos missile as it can change the outcome of any war !!!!

Is Putin right in making such a statement ?????