Russian Engineers Admit Using F-117 Wreckage for Tests

[kinggodzilla87]

Russian Engineers Admit Using F-117 Wreckage for Tests
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/12/140853.shtml

Senior Russian aerospace officials admitted that the F-117 was being used to test new anti-stealth technology and advanced missiles designed to shoot down U.S. aircraft. Russian researchers are testing components of a new air defense system against the F-117 remains.

The Russian anti-stealth tests include radio frequency seekers from surface-to-air missiles and proximity fuses for missile warheads.

In addition, a small number of Russian tactical aircraft have been modified with low-observable stealth technology in order to conduct airborne tests against the new air defense systems


The fact they admit this is stunning
Are trying to they can to fuel a new "cold war". They need to do something nfloorl:

 

[Rich]

The fact they admit this is stunning
Are trying to they can to fuel a new "cold war". They need to do something

They didn't need to admit it for us to know they have always worked feverishly on ways to defeat stealth. I dont think they needed pieces of an F-117 either. There's nothing very secret about the airplane anymore.

Nor do I think the Russians feel very threatened by stealth. Stealth bombers are very few and not a significant strategic threat to Russia. Their export aircraft are selling like hot cakes and the stealth market is pretty small, taken up by the USA, and they are to far behind even if they had a market to sell one of their own stealth aircraft.

If anything they simply want to make their AD type exports more capable. Getting their hands on that one F-117 was no big deal I dont think.

 

[metro]

They didn't need to admit it for us to know they have always worked feverishly on ways to defeat stealth. I dont think they needed pieces of an F-117 either. There's nothing very secret about the airplane anymore.

Nor do I think the Russians feel very threatened by stealth. Stealth bombers are very few and not a significant strategic threat to Russia. Their export aircraft are selling like hot cakes and the stealth market is pretty small, taken up by the USA, and they are to far behind even if they had a market to sell one of their own stealth aircraft.

If anything they simply want to make their AD type exports more capable. Getting their hands on that one F-117 was no big deal I dont think.

I think I read in a couple of places that the Czech's have developed a radars that use radio frequencies to locate stealth. Does anyone know if this is true?

I also read that on a forum (mostly Russians--posting in english?), that during the Balkin War a B-2 was shot down, and what followed was the bomb that hit the Chinese embassy which was being used as a command center?!?
I'm scepticle about this one, but we did have a problem with the Russians as seen by the "meeting at the air port." Did Wesley Clark want to bomb the Russians--or something like that. Thankfully a British General nixed that idea.

I still don't know why as soon as that F-117 hit the ground, something wasn't launched or dropped to destroy it. I remember watching on TV, people dancing around the wreckage for at least a half an hour!?!

 

[jennery587]

Su-37

I THINK SU-37 CAN DETECTED OUR F-117:unknown

Please provide more input than a one liner.

/GD

 

[spectre]

I THINK SU-37 CAN DETECTED OUR F-117:unknown

And how did you come to this thought?

 

[Falstaff]

I think I read in a couple of places that the Czech's have developed a radars that use radio frequencies to locate stealth. Does anyone know if this is true?

You might want to google VERA (passive) and JORN (active) for a start and decide yourself.

I also read that on a forum (mostly Russians--posting in english?), that during the Balkin War a B-2 was shot down, and what followed was the bomb that hit the Chinese embassy which was being used as a command center?!?

Yes, and in Russian forums they use plasma stealth, active radar cancellation, 5000 PAK-FA will flood the skies, everything is better than the western stuff and we westerners aren't doing anything else but hindering them from taking their true position in the world as a super power. Look up "inferiority complex".
BTW the plane downed was an F-117 and both incidents have been widely discussed in this and other forums.

I still don't know why as soon as that F-117 hit the ground, something wasn't launched or dropped to destroy it. I remember watching on TV, people dancing around the wreckage for at least a half an hour!?!

That actually is a good question to speculate on. Pros?

I THINK SU-37 CAN DETECTED OUR F-117

Write in english and more than 3 words at a time, for heaven's sake. Mods, please!

 

[spectre]

I am not convinced of the Russian radar. They could not track our C-130s (in no way stealth in the least) and we had to contact them to let them know our current location. It was like flying over the open ocean and doing check ins every hour.

I think if we ever had a war, the B-52s would have had a field day...


Funny how they needed our own F-117 to do tests on, it was their technology to begin with. We just used the formula. and yes, the F-117 uses the very old first gen stealth...and it is about out the door. I am convinced that the one shot down was "spotted" while the bomb doors were in transition. This was observed by the Iraqis during the first Gulf War and then sold to the Serbs.

 

[Falstaff]

Hold on a sec, there's a difference. True, the shape was based on a work ("Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction") by the Russian physician Pyotr Ufimtsev. But it was developed into a technology by the Americans, the Russians did not recognize the potential. And this was only about the shape, not the RAM and other stealth tech that sure would be of more interest.

 

[spectre]

Hold on a sec, there's a difference. True, the shape was based on a work by a Russian physician (or mathematician?). But it was developed into a technology by the Americans. And this was only about the shape, not the RAM.

Ok, so, they knew about the shape but after 30 years they could not figure out the RAM?

The newer stealth tech is a whole new game and I do not think any of it is even simular to the older F-117 type.

The shape of the F-117 was more than half the battle...

 

[Falstaff]

Ok, so, they knew about the shape but after 30 years they could not figure out the RAM?

I'm pretty sure they researched on RAM too. The Germans trialled RAM coatings for their submarine sails as early as 1942.
BTW did you know Ufimtsev's work was based on the work of German physicist Arnold Sommerfeld?

The newer stealth tech is a whole new game and I do not think any of it is even simular to the older F-117 type.

Exactly. That's why Rich is right.
Still, the Americans are the only ones to have fielded true LO aircraft for many many years to come. And that's the point.

 

[spectre]

I'm pretty sure they researched on RAM too. The Germans trialled RAM coatings for their submarine sails as early as 1942.
BTW did you know Ufimtsev's work was based on the work of German physicist Arnold Sommerfeld?



Exactly. That's why Rich is right.
Still, the Americans are the only ones to have fielded true LO aircraft for many many years to come. And that's the point.

I do not doubt that for one second...but I doubt that it is even close to the same stuff as the coatings on the sub sails...why you might ask

The F-117 RAM can not get wet...They frown heavily against that.

 

[Rich]

Hold on a sec, there's a difference. True, the shape was based on a work ("Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction") by the Russian physician Pyotr Ufimtsev. But it was developed into a technology by the Americans, the Russians did not recognize the potential. And this was only about the shape, not the RAM and other stealth tech that sure would be of more interest.

I agree the Russians underestimated the potential of stealth, at least in the '70s and early '80s. There were a lot of hurdles we Yanks had to overcome, the biggest of which was how to make an aircraft ,shaped liked the F-117, actually fly.

I think that now, in 2007, the science behind stealth aircraft is pretty well understood. Radar, and related technologies, has been one of the most heavily funded defense techs since before WW-ll, and by many nations. This "war of the waves" is an old war and one that is constantly evolving.

I get a kick hearing all these internet experts predicting the defeat of stealth, or, that its already been defeated. Meanwhile the best and brightest of us, in all the modern Mil-Tech manufacturing nations, have either been building stealth aircraft, or aircraft based on LO technology. All these nations wouldn't be spending all that money if the science was out of date.

The battle of the waves will continue. Stealth, and LO, aircraft of the future will have continued success as long as they operate under sound war fighting doctrine. Stealth is not a "war winner" ; Sound tactics are a "war winner" and in that respect nothing has changed since the first military aircraft took to the skies.

That's why these airplane vs airplane dogfighting scenarios are getting ridiculous.

 

[Chrom]

I agree the Russians underestimated the potential of stealth, at least in the '70s and early '80s. There were a lot of hurdles we Yanks had to overcome, the biggest of which was how to make an aircraft ,shaped liked the F-117, actually fly.

.

Contrary, russian very well judged its potencial back then. Now we can say what F-117 and B-2 was failure - much too expencive to both build and operate, and much too ineffective compared to convetional bombers. Only in 21 century, with advention of F-22, stealth technologies become mature enouth to concentrate on them. Russians got a little behind here - but mainly due to fall of SU, and not misjudgement.

 

[Falstaff]

Contrary, russian very well judged its potencial back then. Now we can say what F-117 and B-2 was failure - much too expencive to both build and operate, and much too ineffective compared to convetional bombers. Only in 21 century, with advention of F-22, stealth technologies become mature enouth to concentrate on them. Russians got a little behind here - but mainly due to fall of SU, and not misjudgement.

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense at all. We're talking about the Cold War, America had a proper LO aircraft operational by 1983 that at that time was neither ineffective nor too expensive to operate. As I said, Cold War. So this hasn't anything to do with the breakdown of the SU. Had the Russians recognized the potential or had they been able to built a LO aircraft and make it fly they would have done it. That you can't deny or discuss away. So this hasn't anything to do with the breakdown of the SU.
As Rich said, one of the hardest thing was to make Have Blue and the F-117 fly and I suspect that the Russians who were well behind in terms of FBW didn't manage to in case your statement about their judgement was true.

 

[tphuang]

not only the Russians, Chinese got some too, but then tested it and noticed it wasn't as advanced as they expected, so they trashed it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

not only the Russians, Chinese got some too, but then tested it and noticed it wasn't as advanced as they expected, so they trashed it.

a materials scientist would gain little information about the F-117 from fragments.

the reality is that the F-117 is already regarded as obsolete - and has been operational for 25 years already. they were flying them operationally 6 years before they were unveiled to the public. thats why the USAF is retiring them - not because they're vulnerable, but because a superior sig managed solution with broiader capability is available.

the F-22 has a signature superior to the F-117.

signature management is only partially about materials.

 

[spectre]

not only the Russians, Chinese got some too, but then tested it and noticed it wasn't as advanced as they expected, so they trashed it.

source?

 

[tphuang]

source?

it's from someone who currently works on stealth technology in China, again, what they got is questionable. I'm not saying that China can detect F-22 or anything like that, but rather it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out both countries are actively trying to find anything they can get their hands on to test out anti-stealth measures.

 

[metro]

Originally Posted by metro
I still don't know why as soon as that F-117 hit the ground, something wasn't launched or dropped to destroy it. I remember watching on TV, people dancing around the wreckage for at least a half an hour!?!

That actually is a good question to speculate on. Pros?

@Falstaff
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic in your answer (or both)? It was a serious question. We obviosly knew right away that the F-117 was shot down, and somehow TV crews were able to get right "on the scene" and the world pictures of the wreckage with a bunch of people celebrating "their 'Stealth' Kill.'' Again, if we didn't want anyone to get a hold of a good portion of that plane, I'm not sure why we didn't, "Finish it" ASAP?

The "Pros" of destroying what is left of the F-117, is pretty simple; the structure that remained for all to see on TV, and would definitely be passed off for "inspection," wouldn't have happened.

The Sarcastic "Pros," "WE" would be to able to show that "they" weren't the only one's able to find and hit our "Stealth Aircraft." We could do it too!? Perhaps we were trying but we just couldn't locate our own "invisible" aircraft on the ground, even though the media had no problem locating it. in order to destroy it? We would have also eliminated the TV crew and those who shot the plane down and perhaps been able to go in and check ot the radar that was being used. If my mind serves me correctly, the pilot ejected, got out of the area and was rescued (If I'm not confusing this with another inncident?). So killing the pilot so he couldn't talk wasn't an option as he slipped out of the area. Again this is a sacastic answer, because I'm not sure if you were being serious or not in your response (if you were, my sincere apologies)!:unknown

In reality, I see no cons unles it couldn't have been done.

 

[metro]

a materials scientist would gain little information about the F-117 from fragments.

the reality is that the F-117 is already regarded as obsolete - and has been operational for 25 years already. they were flying them operationally 6 years before they were unveiled to the public. thats why the USAF is retiring them - not because they're vulnerable, but because a superior sig managed solution with broiader capability is available.

the F-22 has a signature superior to the F-117.

signature management is only partially about materials.

Question about the F-22s and aerial-refueling:
I don't know the true range of the aircraft, but my guess is that it's not very "Green" of a plane... I'm guessing in terms of using fuel it's more like a F1 race car than some Toyota Hybrid. So, what happens when a wing of F-22s have to refuel in mid-air? I'm guessing that plane full of fuel shows up on radar unlike the F-22. So the question for the "enemy" is why is there a refueling aircraft, "with nothing to refuel"? I'd think that large plane would create suspecions and provides for an interesting target?

I admit I don't know much about the F-22 (other than what's published), or how it would handle a situation like this. Just looking for an answer if you can provide one.
Thanks!