Russia to shore up support to India in cruise missile project

gf0012-aust

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Russia to shore up support to India in cruise missile project

NEW DELHI (AFP) Dec 02, 2004

Russia on Thursday agreed to expand its role in a joint project to build a sophisticated cruise missile with India and assured steady supplies of military spare parts to its largest customer and old Cold War ally.
Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, who is in New Delhi to prepare the agenda for President Vladimir Putin's three-day state visit, also said the two countries would hold their first joint military exercises in India involving paratroopers next year.

"In the coming days executive orders will be passed so that the share of Russia's side in the project will be scaled up," he said of the project to build the BrahMos cruise missile.

"India, Russia relationship has now moved from a buyer-seller relationship to joint technology development of new projects," he added.

The two sides have tested the multi-target BrahMos, which can be launched from submarine, ship, aircraft or land, three times since the start of the multi-million dollar project in 2001.

The missile, which can be launched from vertical or inclined positions, has a range of up to 280 kilometres (175 miles) and is one of the most potent cruise missiles in the armoury of both Russia and India.

"There has been happy developments and the Russian president will be visiting the BrahMos complex and it has been decided that there will be fresh investment into the project," said Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Putin was due to arrive early Friday to hold talks with leaders including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Neither Ivanov or Mukherjee elaborated on their talks of assuring supplies of critical spares for India's Soviet origin military equipment but they said the matter, which in recent years had caused friction, had been sorted out.

"The Russian government has given an assurance that there will be a comfort period (in the supply chain)," Ivanov told reporters at a joint press conference with Mukherjee on the eve of Putin's arrival.

Seventy percent of India's military hardware is of Soviet origin and since the Soviet Union's 1991 breakup the army, navy and air force have complained of problems obtaining spares from debt-ridden Russian armament factories.

Ninety percent of hardware in the inventory of the Indian air force is of Soviet origin and on several occasions including during a near-war between India and Pakistan in 1999 Russians armament firms failed to deliver on time.

There was also no word on India's call for a breakthrough in stalled talks with Moscow to reach a tripartite pact with Israel for revamping India's fleet of Tu-142 maritime surveillance aircraft. It bought the planes from the Soviet Union in 1988.

Russia on the other hand is pressing India to sign an agreement on the protection of intellectual property rights (IPR) to safeguard against military technologies jointly developed or produced under licence being copied by third countries.

Mukherjee said there was some progress on the issue.

"By January the first meeting will be held on the draft and in four-five months the draft (for an IPR treaty) should be ready," he said, without elaborating.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/041202141958.dfdmw5i3.html

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I'm assuming that the co-operation on GLONASS is part of the Brahmos development issue. That would make sense as it would link into how the Russians manage Yakhont currently.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Can India and Russia now jointly develop longer range brahmos (approx 600km)?I mean if MTCR will allow to do that?Or India must develop on its own.


The two sides have tested the multi-target BrahMos, which can be launched from submarine, ship, aircraft or land, three times since the start of the multi-million dollar project in 2001.
All the 3 tests were on either land or from a ship.
But it hasn't been tested from aircraft and Submarine.Especially nothing has been said about the development of Sub-Launched version of Brahmos.
It is being said that air-Launched version will equip Su-30.

I think the first Ship armed with brahmos will be Shivalik class frigate as its is being said that Brahmos would be inducted in 2005.

There was also no word on India's call for a breakthrough in stalled talks with Moscow to reach a tripartite pact with Israel for revamping India's fleet of Tu-142 maritime surveillance aircraft. It bought the planes from the Soviet Union in 1988.
Also no word about the TU-22M backfire Bombers for Navy and a Akula nuclear Submarine.
They would have atleast discussed about the Akula deal ,if not signing it.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Putin's push for a strategic triangle
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/FL08Ag02.html
MOSCOW - Russia is again calling for a Moscow-New Delhi-Beijing axis, an alliance of three nuclear-armed countries of some 2.5 billion people that theoretically would be able to balance US power in coming years.

Cooperation among Russia, India and China "would make a great contribution to global security", Russian President Vladimir Putin announced in New Delhi. The Kremlin leader, on a visit to India over the weekend, accused the West of pursuing a dictatorial foreign policy and setting double standards on terrorism. A unipolar world could entail dangerous trends globally, Putin said, adding that unilateralism increased risks that weapons of mass destruction might fall into the hands of terrorists.

Putin refrained from naming the unilateral power in question, but it is widely assumed he was referring to the United States when he lashed out at "unipolar world" policies. Putin and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh issued a joint call for "multipolar world" and a greater role for the United Nations. The Russian leader also backed India's bid for a permanent United Nations Security Council seat.
Why would he say like that when everyone knows that India and China do not have much friendly relationship.
This strategic triangle would be more like a Military axis against US.
[/quote]
 

Focus

New Member
India making a long range cruise missile would be an excellent additional tool to hit the enemy's high valued assets via a low cost yet accurate option. I heard that a Tomahawk costs $1 Million each so in India-Russia case it should be around half mil which is an excellent price to send 20 of them on an airbase or C&C centre without risking the plane and the pilot.

Additional understanding between between India-Russia makes much more sense. We should also try to get Israel into the equation along with South Africa and Brazil and other Southern American nations. China can be left out in cold to pay for its hostility in the past and having a bad credit rating when it comes to trust.

:cop Admin: The topic is "Russia to shore up support to India in cruise missile project". Stay within the spirit of debate rather than putting in unnecessary comments which could be perceived as flame baits!
 

highsea

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
Especially nothing has been said about the development of Sub-Launched version of Brahmos.
...Also no word about the TU-22M backfire Bombers for Navy and a Akula nuclear Submarine. They would have atleast discussed about the Akula deal ,if not signing it.
I don't think India has a sub that could handle the Brahmos right now, it would take a 650mm tube, and the Kilo's are all 533mm. IIRC, The Akula II has 4 650mm tubes, but I think normally they are armed with the SS-N-16 Stallion. Then I suppose the fire control and storage/handling systems would have to be modified, etc...

What about it Gary, what would it take to put the Brahmos on the Akula II?
 

gf0012-aust

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highsea said:
ajay_ijn said:
Especially nothing has been said about the development of Sub-Launched version of Brahmos.
...Also no word about the TU-22M backfire Bombers for Navy and a Akula nuclear Submarine. They would have atleast discussed about the Akula deal ,if not signing it.
I don't think India has a sub that could handle the Brahmos right now, it would take a 650mm tube, and the Kilo's are all 533mm. IIRC, The Akula II has 4 650mm tubes, but I think normally they are armed with the SS-N-16 Stallion. Then I suppose the fire control and storage/handling systems would have to be modified, etc...

What about it Gary, what would it take to put the Brahmos on the Akula II?
I'd say that the reason why India is after an Akula II is becuse it is the only sub that can currently launch the Yakhont/Brahmos/P-800. Thus/Plus, the FCS of the Akula II's will already be sympathetic to GLONASS managed weapons.

Yakhont/P-800 uses GLONASS - India prior to a few weeks ago was using autonomous guidance so as to keep Russia within the bounds of its MCTR obligations. The fact that Brahmos is now "indigenous", the fact that India and Russia are looking to triple the size of GLONASS on a shared project, kind of indicates that Brahmos is heading back to its guidance "roots" - and all without breaching the MCTR.

It's a smart move - a good example of military and political lateral thinking "at work"
 

Focus

New Member
"all without breaching the MCTR"

In these days when countries are smuggling nuke technologies in exchange for missile know how, the MTCR, CTBT and other BS holds NO value. India should get into similar exchange of technologies with friends.............if it is bold enough! Nice guys finish last, unfortunately Indians have not learned this.
 

gf0012-aust

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Focus said:
"all without breaching the MCTR"

In these days when countries are smuggling nuke technologies in exchange for missile know how, the MTCR, CTBT and other BS holds NO value. India should get into similar exchange of technologies with friends.............if it is bold enough! Nice guys finish last, unfortunately Indians have not learned this.
That may be so, but the issue is that member states of the MCTR are bound by the rules. If India had breached the spirit of Russias transfer - then it would place Russia in a difficult position.

As it is, there are ways to get around the MCTR - but the spirit of it's intent is the issue - and it was geared to ToT to nation states. Like a number of international obligations, those obligations were constructed around responses by recognised governments. Terrorism as such is one of the new legal challenges that the UN and other International bodies have to come to grips with. Non nation states are not bound by the legalities and intent of those obligo's

It's a complex issue that just can't be dismissed as irrelevant - process needs to be constructed to make it work.

The bottom line is that India operated within the spirit of the obligation - ipso facto, Russia was not at risk.
 

doggychow14

New Member
Additional understanding between between India-Russia makes much more sense. We should also try to get Israel into the equation along with South Africa and Brazil and other Southern American nations. China can be left out in cold to pay for its hostility in the past and having a bad credit rating when it comes to trust.
Actually China has good relations with all those states except for India. However, at the time china's own cruise missile programme is picking up speed with the hn-2(Rumored reverse engineered tomahawk with 1500 km range) and the new hn-3(new cruise missile with range up to 3000 km)[/quote]

Admin: The topic is "Russia to shore up support to India in cruise missile project"
 

Focus

New Member
"then it would place Russia in a difficult position"

All the international obligations were barbecued with hot sauce when US attacked Iraq without the UN approval in 2003.

Russia has been the biggest loser in ending the cold war in a way it did. Russians have thwarted bankruptcy because Oil prices have been high in the last two years, infact the high oil prices in mid 70s were the reason why USSR prolonged till 1985, when Gorby was planted by the communist party to start the show of collapse of Communism. In true sense cold war was over in 1962 when the Soviet ships took a U turn in the Cuban waters. As to what holds for Russia in the future is a big strategic question. Other than few rusted nukes and 5-10 year lagging weapons technology, Russians have only oil in addition to offer.

Sorry for weering off the main topic!

Regarding Russia in difficult situation.........Russians have gained nothing or peanuts at best from the West since 1991, so now they are free to choose their course of action. When you lose pride in your identity then you have lost your soul.....atleast in this point I put Iraqi and Palestinians above the Russians.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
I don't think India has a sub that could handle the Brahmos right now, it would take a 650mm tube, and the Kilo's are all 533mm. IIRC, The Akula II has 4 650mm tubes, but I think normally they are armed with the SS-N-16 Stallion. Then I suppose the fire control and storage/handling systems would have to be modified, etc...
Are u sure that Brahmos cannot be launched from 533mm tube.
Becoz if a strategic cruise missile like Granat of 3000km range can be fired from 533mm tubes of Akula then why not brahmos.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/fleet/russian/971.htm

I'd say that the reason why India is after an Akula II is becuse it is the only sub that can currently launch the Yakhont/Brahmos/P-800. Thus/Plus, the FCS of the Akula II's will already be sympathetic to GLONASS managed weapons.
I think India is leasing Akula like the Charlie class sub.
not buying them So India navy cannot have the complete Command of Akula and cannot be used in conflict.
Its for training of India navy personnel in a Nuclear Submarine.
 

gf0012-aust

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ajay_ijn said:
Are u sure that Brahmos cannot be launched from 533mm tube.
Brahmos: Launch-container dimensions 8.9 meters length, 0.7 meters diameter

ajay_ijn said:
Becoz if a strategic cruise missile like Granat of 3000km range can be fired from 533mm tubes of Akula then why not brahmos.
Granat: AUR Diameter 0.85 meters

The Akulas have 2 sizes of torpedo tubes.

ARMAMENT

Missiles:
SLCM - SS-N-21 Sampson fired from 21 in (533 mm) tubes
A/S- SS-N-15 fired from 21 in (533 mm) tubes
SS-N-16 fired from 25.6 in (650 mm) tubes
payload Type 45 torpedo

Torpedoes:
4 - 21 in (533 mm) tubes
4 - 25.6 in (650 mm) tubes

( Type 53 and Type 65 )

Later Akulas have 6 x 650mm torpedo tubes. They can be sleeved for smaller launches (ie a sabot)

Thats why they can fire brahmos.

In addition the Granats are only fired from Oscar 1's and Oscar 2's

The site you mention is incorrect. The Granat is too fat to fit into the torpedo tubes - and they are a VLS launch.



Two OSCAR I submarines were built, and were followed by 11 OCSAR II boats. One of the OSCAR II boats, the KURSK, infamously exploded and sank on 13 August 2000 with loss of all hands. If necessary, an OSCAR submarine can perform its own targeting for its load of 24 missiles with a long-range sonar system. The P-700 is also carried on surface vessels, including four KIROV-class cruisers and the full carrier ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV. Each KIROV-class vessel carries 20 P-700 near-vertical launch tubes; the launch system was adapted directly from the submarine launch system without many changes, and in fact the tubes have to be filled with water before missile launch. The missiles can be targeted by ship's radar and ELINT systems. The ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV carries 12 P-700 launchers.
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz7.html
 

highsea

New Member
Gary, I think the confusion comes from the SS-N-21 being referred to as the RKV-500 Granat. So Ajay is mixing up the P-700 and the RKV-500. (both are Granats?)
Circular Error Probable 150 m /165-yd
Diameter/Caliber 520mm /20.47-in
Length 8.1 m /27-ft
Max Range 2,500 km /1,350 nm
Max Speed 922 kph /Mach .77
Max Weight 1,700 kg /3,748-lb
Span 3.1 m /10-ft
Yield (Total) 200-kiloton
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00144002

Anyway, the Brahmos won't fit in a 533mm tube, no matter how hard you push on it... :p
 

gf0012-aust

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highsea said:
Gary, I think the confusion comes from the SS-N-21 being referred to as the RKV-500 Granat. So Ajay is mixing up the P-700 and the RKV-500. (both are Granats?)
Circular Error Probable 150 m /165-yd
Diameter/Caliber 520mm /20.47-in
Length 8.1 m /27-ft
Max Range 2,500 km /1,350 nm
Max Speed 922 kph /Mach .77
Max Weight 1,700 kg /3,748-lb
Span 3.1 m /10-ft
Yield (Total) 200-kiloton
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00144002

Anyway, the Brahmos won't fit in a 533mm tube, no matter how hard you push on it... :p
Yep, I think you're right about the confusion. I'm talking about "SS-N-19 Shipwreck"

It's physically impossible for them to fit in the smaller tubes - thats why they'd only be able to be launched in the larger tubes (which are in the Akulas)

The poor sub would be haemoraging on the ocean floor otherwise. ;)
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Anyway, the Brahmos won't fit in a 533mm tube, no matter how hard you push on it...
Then how are they Going solve this problem.
Most of SSK's have only 533mm tube.
Akula deal is still not signed and it is to be leased not to be buyed.

I think they have to reduce the Size of Sub-launched Brahmos so that they fit into 533mm tube.They need to comprimise even if range is to be decreased for that.
Well India navy already has Sub-launched Missile Klub of 220km,So again they won't fit Brahmos into SSK.
But a there is chance of ATV to be armed with brahmos.
First ATV must be an SSBN with Dhanush or sagarika and Second onwards must be Attack Submarine armed with brahmos.
 
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