RPGs vs Leo2, RPGs vs M-2001 (how many of them to do the job)

[Kosovo=Serbia]

I don't know much (nothing) about modern tanks armour defence, and RPGs power versus them. So I will first put few pic and info of M-2001 tank, because it is not very famous like leo 2 about which I suppose you know everything.
And where is best point to target this tanks?

The M-2001 MBT was presented by Yugoipmort SDPR for the first time in 2004 but under the designation M-84AB1, later an improved version of the tank was given to what is today the M-2001. This new tank is equipped with an improved fire-control system with integrated day/night sight.The M84A1 gun was replaced with a similar but improved gun which, along with better control characteristics, enables easy and fast replacement of the cannon barrel in field. The M-2001 tank is able to fire Anti-tank guided missiles with laser guidance through the barrel, which enables accurate engagement of enemy tanks up to 9 km.

The M-2001 is equipped with Non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) which offers protection against modern tandem cumulative warheads. Beside better armor, the new tank is equipped with modern electro-optical system for defense against wire and laser guided anti-tank missiles. The 12.7 mm M87 anti-aircraft machine gun can destroy aircraft.The new turret should provide Against Kinetic Energy (RHAe) ATGs. Its new 9M119 Svir a laser beam riding guided anti-tank missiles design to penetrate 900 mm of RHA. Shtora is a electro-optical active protection suite for tanks, designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).
Developed originally from the M-84 the M-2001 sought more than just a quick tweak to bring it up to standard, many successes were adopted from what can be argued as its sister tank (T-90) with a slight difference in armour and maneuverability, the T-90 being better armored and the M-2001 being faster and more maneuverable.

 

[kato]

> (how many of them to do the job)

0.5

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Sorry for thumbnails, I need more posts, I hope you can see it.
And AT rockets too, every possible hand rocket launcher, mean all kind of RPGs and AT, what is the best and which is worst for that job.

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

> (how many of them to do the job)

0.5

I am not sure what you saying...

 

[kato]

I am not sure what you saying...

Either the first round penetrates (1), or it doesn't (0). As you don't know that ahead, your chance is the average between that, 0.5.

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

No offense, but that is stupid. First If I shoot at two opposite side of tanks, I dont see how the first failed shoot would affect to second, and I dont see how if not penetrated, then melted, softer and weaker armour can resist another shoots. I dont know, but I think that theory refer to possibility of being disabled on battlefield from RPGs -0.5 chances- if you know what I mean- right?
Anyway, it does not seems to me quite logically. Is there any kind of test that could show how much of enemy fire (RPGs maybe) can Leo 2 survive or maybe M-2001 ?

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

And is there any change of temperature inside the tank, after it receive several rockets, or there is some kind of isolation, I mean wouldn't the rise of temp. after multi RPGs attack have in a result at least in injury or dead crew. How many serial RPG attacks are needed to rise temp. in Leo 2 or M-2001 above
consistently level????
Sorry for bothering, but your 0.5 theory.... make me more curios... :unknown

 

[Todjaeger]

No offense, but that is stupid. First If I shoot at two opposite side of tanks, I dont see how the first failed shoot would affect to second, and I dont see how if not penetrated, then melted, softer and weaker armour can resist another shoots. I dont know, but I think that theory refer to possibility of being disabled on battlefield from RPGs -0.5- if you know what I mean- right?
Anyway, it does not seems to me quite logically. Is there any kind of test that could show how much of enemy fire (RPGs maybe) can Leo 2 survive or maybe M-2001 ?

There are several problems with a question like this as well as several (many) variables which all can or would effect the answer.

For starters though, I would expect that all tank designers, manufacturors as well as AT weaponmakers would conduct testing to determine what types and design or armour can withstand what type and design warheads. I would also expect that access to such data (or at least accurate data) would be restricted to those with some form of security clearance and with good reason.

Speaking broadly, the question of how an RPG or or AT weapon performs against a tank is difficult to answer without a good deal more specific information. Three things that would need to be known to attempt such an answer would be as follows.

1. What specific AT weapon was used? There is a significant difference between the AT performance of an RPG-7 compared to that of the RPG-29, or another AT weapon like Javelin or TOW2. Also as part of this, when & where the weapon was made could play a role as well. Over time rounds can break down and a Vietnam-era RPG-7 would likely be less effective than an RPG-7 constructed last year. Similarly, where the device was built could effect the performance of the AT weapon. I do not have specifics but I recall reading somewhere that one of the former WarPac countries at one point built notoriously poor RPGs either in the late 70's or early 80's.

2. Similar to the need to know about the AT weapon used, the most of the same information is needed on the tank hit. In this case, what is needed more is the specific model, since that would indicate the composition and layout of the armour and vehicle.

3. Lastly, where the AT weapon struck the tank needs to be known. An RPG-7 hitting a Leo II head-on in the glacis is likely to annoy the crew. OTOH a similar RPG-7 fired from above at a downward angle onto the turret top could potentially damage a Leo II.

Hope this helps, or at least provides some food for thought.

-Cheers

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Yes,....................... for some time.........................

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

I am hungry again.......
Lets say
1. RPG-7 constructed 10 years ago and new Leo2 with its standard
protection, or new M-2001
2. New TOW2 vs same condition tanks.

 

[Investigator]

Comments deleted.

 

[Rev]

It all depends on which model and warhead of RPG you use, and where you aim at. If the rocket hits the thickest front of turret, a crew/vehicle kill is least probable since the shape charge plasma will had dissipate through the thickness of the armor. The best parts to aim at is always the back or the top of the tank, where the armor is the thinnest. That's why tanks are badly suited for urban combat, cause opponents can easily ambush the vehicle from adjacent buildings (most likely attacking the top of the tank from the roof with RPGs). This weakness is held by all current tanks.

At current, the Russians had designed the RPG-29 and it's disposable version, the RPG-27, to be able to penetrate the frontal glacis of modern MBTs such as the Leopard 2 and Challenger 2. Again, attacking the front may not be complete effective and users should always try to hit either the tank's sides, top, or back. Also, the tandem warheads for the RPG-29/27 are design to bypass any reactive armor. Newer versions of rockets for the older/more common RPG-7 have similar performances/capabilities.

I'm no expert, but I'm sure one well place RPG-29/27 rocket on the side/back/top of any tank will cause heavy damage (especially if it was lucky enough to set off ammunition/fuel inside the tank). When engaging the front, I say at least two for a sure kill on a Leopard 2, but my guess is as good as yours. Killing a tank is like hunting large game. Depending where you hit, you either kill it in one shot or make it angry.

 

[Todjaeger]

I am hungry again.......
Lets say
1. RPG-7 constructed 10 years ago and new Leo2 with its standard
protection, or new M-2001
2. New TOW2 vs same condition tanks.

As I mentioned before, those with the actual, accurate information are not, for good reason, saying. Given that the HEAT warhead of an RPG-7 is in the range of ~2-4.5 kg (depending on which version RPG-7), a great deal would depend on where the tank was hit. The glacis plate is generally where the thickest armour can be found and would likely not be penetrated given a Leo II's composite armour. An overhead or top-down attack might be able to penetrate the turret top armour though. Another consideration would be a track hit, which could achieve a mobility kill.

There is a great deal of possible variation in outcomes that depend on the equipment involved and the situational requirements, with much of the data classified. What might be more beneficial would be to read up on AT tactics to gain an overall understanding of possible situations. Particularly since an RPG-7 is not the only way for infantry to deal with tanks,

As for the TOW2, I would expect that it would perform considerably better than an RPG-7, being a significantly larger ATGM with a (IIRC tandem) warhead of ~12kg and the newest versions of TOW2 also have a top-down attack capability.

-Cheers

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Hi K=S,

Is this thread a way of saying that if Kosovo gets independence from Serbia that Serbia will send its M-2001s into the "country" only to be met by ethnic Albanians' RPGs? And you are interested in the outcome, of course.

NZ deployed a company to the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR)in Bosnia in the mid to late 1990s (when we realised our APVs were rubbish and needed to be replaced or upgraded).

We would rather not have to do it again if you insist on killing each other - for your information the camps were not a good public relations move. Too German in WW2.

BTW your nom-de-plume is clear. Thank you for the honesty. (Mine should be left-wing New Zealand Labour supporter)

Well you hit off the point, but missed few things. First Serbia will not respond
with ANY kind of force, like we said long before. Our fight is strictly diplomatic.
If you are just switch on BBC, CNN, sky news, Euronews.... you could see that. First I was asked about Leo2, because if anything happen, it will be with
Albanians, who got high hormones in blood these days, and who needs/waits only a spark to make some kind of shhiitt. You remember kristallnacht on march 2004. Well they dont need our military intervention as a reason to attack, they can use our diplomatic and economic attacks as reason as well.
Or they can intense pressure on remain Serbs,(cutting off electricity, watter,
heating, brow-beat us and terrorizing wherever they find us and etc.) so our
government after lastly make harder move ( not military of course, but lets say economic embargo, or kind of sanction...) and they can use that us reason pretty easy. All I want to say is that they dont really need a reason to
do whatever they want to do, especially with US support. So sooner or later
(hope never) they will study out something as reason to attack.
And as KFOR are main and only security force on Kosovo, with I think most Leo2 MBT which I hope will react properly if anything happens, how much
chances they have against Albanians RPGs? Or to preformulate will they be able with Leo2 as their strongest weapons to protect Serbs. How will they handle well RPGs armed Albanians with Leo2. Will they handle it or run back to their bases, leaving Serbs unprotected. That is why I am really interest for that and why I started this thread. Can I count on them?

And btw, I mentioned M-2001 because they will be as I heard main Serbian MBT on border, so they can prevent any escalation of violence there ( in Albanian populated Presevo, Bujanovac and Medvedja). This is also critically area in south Serbia on border with Kosovo, there was also before offenses from Kosovo, and now when Albanians who live there announce some kind of public gathering calling it celebration for independence, you can simply smell
turbulence. So it is also possible that they can provoke a turmoil, or even military intervention there. And then you can easy imagine a picture how rocket flying toward tanks. So btw I asked about M-2001 because of that.

I hope this are scenarios that will never come to life.:shudder :shudder

I dont understand in military very much, ( read - loged ) so to someone
my questions may look stupid, but for me this is important. Maybe I should named the thread- for ex-Can KFOR insure a peace and stop possible assault, but Leo2 is my idol and give me the best hope, and Germans who saved most of people, houses, churches and monasteries on kristallnacht and during all this time for me are most reliable. And with Leo2 as their stud, thinking of posting this thread I instinctivly name it.

So..............

New Zeland is nice country, me and my friends call it Middle-earth.........


Guess you know why.....

And sorry if you didnt understand something, my English is not so good...

Cheers

 

[kato]

Quick offtopic questions:

I know the current ORF ready battalion is British, and one out of 2nd Royal Gurkhas Rifles, 1st Welsh Guards, and 2nd Rifles - anyone know which one of those three it is right now - i suspect 1st Welsh Guards? (since Jan 1)

The Italian 7° Alpini Rgt, one of the two ORF standby battalions, is right now "coincidentally" on Operation Rehearsal in Kosovo. (source: NATO KFOR website)
The second ORF standby battalion would be German - but i don't know which btl replaced GebJgBtl 232 in that function on Jan 1st?

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Thank you all people.
I think I got my answer.
Sorry for bothering
Cheers

 

[Investigator]

Comments deleted.

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Thanks K=S, I did understand you. Your English is much better than my knowledge of any non-English languages.

I didn't think it was clear to some of the other posters why this thread came about. We all have our motives - yours are clear and upfront.

Also, I was in a hostel in Greece in 2001 (prior to the attack on the US) and found there were a couple of New Zealanders who had been with the NZ contingent in the on-going United Nations deployment (the company having long gone). They weren't so fond of the Albanians either. As I recall, they said of the KLA, they would pat you on the back - to find out where to stick the knife in!

I'm happy to be in a safe and stable (lord of the rings loving) country. I do thank my lucky stars that I don't live in other more dangerous places - as you appear to live in. Try to keep as safe as you can.

Well, I am glad you understand, I am just kind of worried.
And yes the Albanians are kind of strange people. Sure it is not nice from me to stereotype people like this, but I use to live with them together till my 14.
I know many good of them and many bad, like everywhere else, but after war
and after arrival of KFOR my closest neighbors, Albanians, people with I was hanging around in peace times, playing soccer -about which I thought are good one........burned my house to the ground.
Maybe you heard when they spectaculary receive US president Bush, during he happily going throughout the crowd, they stole his wallet......
Of course I can tell you many stories about them, but is not behave what I want, because I dont really hate them, although they kill my 12 years old friend and 26 old uncle, and did many crimes........
Because we use to kill them as well, and I am sure that they have same story to tell you too.......when we ( Serbians and Albanians) start to argue
over the web, that is real firework and from true easy turn on to propaganda
and lies, so thank God that there are not Albanians, because this thread would be closed long before.
So leave them.....

How far are you from Rohan ???

 

[lobbie111]

On wikipedia, there is the article on the chally 2 it is said that one of them became imobilised in IRAQ sustained 0VER 80 RPG-7 hits and the crew was perfectly fine, the tank was repaired within a few hours and returned to service, can someone provide me on the truth to this claim?

 

[kay_man]

On wikipedia, there is the article on the chally 2 it is said that one of them became imobilised in IRAQ sustained 0VER 80 RPG-7 hits and the crew was perfectly fine, the tank was repaired within a few hours and returned to service, can someone provide me on the truth to this claim?

come on !!!

cant be 80 !! that just sounds phoney. 80 rpg-7s is a large amount of firepower even for 5 years to come.