RPG Chopper Shield

satcom

New Member
I found this in the June Popular Science

Name: RPG Net
Inventor: Richard Glasson
Cost to Develop: $10,000
Time: 2 years


Last January, a Black Hawk helicopter flying in rural Iraq burst into flames, killing all 13 soldiers on board. A few days later, a helicopter owned by a private security company crashed in Baghdad, killing five civilian contractors. Over the next few weeks, six more aircraft were shot down, leaving 11 more dead—one of the worst series of chopper disasters since the war began.

Although the Army won’t attribute any crash solely to an RPG—insurgents typically fire guns at the craft as well—the simple, unguided, shoulder-launched projectiles are widely believed to be the primary anti-chopper ordnance of the insurgency.

New Jersey inventor Richard Glasson thinks he can stop the attacks. He’s designed the first-ever anti-RPG system for aircraft: a volley of nets that catch the grenades before they hit. Glasson was inspired by Mark Bowden’s best seller Black Hawk Down, which recounts the 1993 killing of 18 U.S. soldiers in Somalia after an RPG brought down their chopper. “I couldn’t believe that such a low-tech weapon could take down a several-million-dollar aircraft,” he says. “That’s a spectacular outcome for a 40-year-old technology.”

Fourteen years later, still the only defense helicopters have against RPGs is avoidance: “either flying too high or too unpredictably to be targeted,” explains John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, a military think tank in Alexandria, Virginia. Other countermeasures, such as radar jammers and flares, are worthless against unguided weapons like RPGs.

Defense companies are working on systems that would fire projectiles at the grenades to destroy them. But that’s “like hitting a bullet with a bullet,” says Glasson, who is the chief engineer at Control Products, a company that designs sensors for aerospace and defense. (He’s worked on sensors that protect gearboxes from overheating on the president’s Marine One choppers and in jet engines on most commercial airliners.) So he devised a defense that, like its target, is surprisingly simple. Since RPGs are far slower than heat-seeking missiles and are easily knocked off course, he set out to build a system that would block or at least deflect the grenades before they reached the chopper.

The key is launching that barrier in time. An RPG will detonate four to six seconds after being fired (unless it hits a solid object—then it detonates on impact). In Glasson’s system, the chopper’s radar calculates the speed and trajectory of an incoming grenade within milliseconds. Half a second later, pods of launch tubes on the helicopter aim and fire between one and eight unguided yard-long rockets on an intercept course with the grenade. The rocket’s aim doesn’t have to be precise because each drags a braided steel-cable parachute woven with Kevlar. In the next second, these fast-opening chutes inflate to form a series of six-foot-wide bombproof nets, catching the grenade and dragging it to the ground.

“He might really be on to something here,” Pike says. Glasson won’t know for sure until he can test the nets on a real helicopter, and for that he needs the backing of the Pentagon or one of its big contractors. Two years ago, Pentagon officials told him that the agency was more interested in pursuing a laser-based defense system, which is years from realization, but Glasson hopes the recent spate of crashes will convince them to take another look at his idea. Retired chopper pilot Lt. Col. James Bullinger, an editor at Army Aviation magazine, thinks they will. “When it comes to saving lives,” Bullinger says, “they will spend the money on it.”
 

Chrom

New Member
I dont believe anyone can hit a chopper with RPG - unless of course it slowly howers 100m away. I would be much more concerned about ATGM's thought... I'm pretty sure what most helicopters RPG-like hits was ATGM's.
 

beleg

New Member
A few Turkish utility helos are reported to be hit by RPGs while fighting terrorists in the mountain regiouns of S.E Turkey and N.Iraq. One was carrying a Brigadier General but the ammo didnt explode. He mentions this in his book about the operations.
 

merocaine

New Member
you dont have to hit them, just rig your RPG to explode at 100 feet (or what ever hight the target usually flies at), and bingo, just get it within 60 feet or so and you pepper the chopper with shrapnal. Lay a few of those in the path of a chopper and they fly into a wall shrapnal. Thats the technipue the Somalians used to target US choppers.

Unless there actually hovering or landing it would be almost impossible to score a hit.
 

Chrom

New Member
you dont have to hit them, just rig your RPG to explode at 100 feet (or what ever hight the target usually flies at), and bingo, just get it within 60 feet or so and you pepper the chopper with shrapnal. Lay a few of those in the path of a chopper and they fly into a wall shrapnal. Thats the technipue the Somalians used to target US choppers.

Unless there actually hovering or landing it would be almost impossible to score a hit.
It is nearly impossible to adjust RPG fuse precise enouth for that task. It is even more impossible to use such adjusted fuse with any good result as detonation RPG +-10m from the chopper will be already almost harmless. And, for record, 90% RPG used are equipped with HEAT warhead (which have quite weak HE effect) a anyway.
 

merocaine

New Member
this is taken from wikipedia:unknown

"There have been allegations that Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda movement was involved in training and funding of Aidid's men. In his 2001 book, Holy War, Inc., CNN reporter Peter Bergen interviewed Bin Laden who affirmed these allegations. According to Bergen, Bin Laden asserted that fighters affiliated with his group were involved in killing American troops in Somalia in 1993, a claim he had earlier made to the Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. According to CNN, al-Qaeda claimed to have supplied a large number of Soviet-designed rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs) to Aidid's fighters, and instructed them in ways to modify the RPGs to make them more effective against helicopters."

In Mark Bowdens "Black Hawk down" interviewed Somalian fighters outlined how they were thought to fuse them to detonate within seconds of launch, and also the best tactics to employ when using modified RPG's.
Obviously I cant post a link to that.

And, for record, 90% RPG used are equipped with HEAT warhead (which have quite weak HE effect) a anyway.
So I guess they dont buy the heat war head then.

From Global Security
"Helicopter hunting
While the RPG was designed to kill tanks and other combat vehicles, it has brought down a number of helicopters as well. During the fighting in Mogadishu, Somalia in October 1994, the two US Army Blackhawk helicopters shot down were by the RPG. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen found that the best anti-helicopter tactics were anti-helicopter ambushes. The first variant was to identify likely landing zones and mine them. Then the Mujahideen would position machine guns and RPGs around the landing zone. As the helicopter landed, massed RPG and machine gun fire would tear into the aircraft.(14)

If the Mujahideen could not lure helicopters into an ambush kill zone, the RPG could still engage helicopters. The Mujahideen found that a frontal shot at a range of 100 meters was optimum against an approaching helicopter.(15) As before, the more RPGs firing simultaneously, the better chance of a hit and escape from an avenging wingman.(16)

Should the helicopters be flying further away, it was better to wait until the helicopter was 700-800 meters away and then fire, trying to catch the helicopter with the explosion of the round's self-destruction at 920 meters distance. Chances of hitting a helicopter at this range by the self-destruct mechanism were very limited, but they served to discourage reconnaissance helicopters and air assault landings, particularly if a SA-7 Strela or a Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile was also firing.(17)"

The high explosive OG-7V war head has a maximum kill area of 150M in body armour, as an air burst this is very effective.
 

Chrom

New Member
this is taken from wikipedia:unknown

"There have been allegations that Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda movement was involved in training and funding of Aidid's men. In his 2001 book, Holy War, Inc., CNN reporter Peter Bergen interviewed Bin Laden who affirmed these allegations. According to Bergen, Bin Laden asserted that fighters affiliated with his group were involved in killing American troops in Somalia in 1993, a claim he had earlier made to the Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. According to CNN, al-Qaeda claimed to have supplied a large number of Soviet-designed rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs) to Aidid's fighters, and instructed them in ways to modify the RPGs to make them more effective against helicopters."

In Mark Bowdens "Black Hawk down" interviewed Somalian fighters outlined how they were thought to fuse them to detonate within seconds of launch, and also the best tactics to employ when using modified RPG's.
Obviously I cant post a link to that.


So I guess they dont buy the heat war head then.

From Global Security
"Helicopter hunting
While the RPG was designed to kill tanks and other combat vehicles, it has brought down a number of helicopters as well. During the fighting in Mogadishu, Somalia in October 1994, the two US Army Blackhawk helicopters shot down were by the RPG. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen found that the best anti-helicopter tactics were anti-helicopter ambushes. The first variant was to identify likely landing zones and mine them. Then the Mujahideen would position machine guns and RPGs around the landing zone. As the helicopter landed, massed RPG and machine gun fire would tear into the aircraft.(14)

If the Mujahideen could not lure helicopters into an ambush kill zone, the RPG could still engage helicopters. The Mujahideen found that a frontal shot at a range of 100 meters was optimum against an approaching helicopter.(15) As before, the more RPGs firing simultaneously, the better chance of a hit and escape from an avenging wingman.(16)

Should the helicopters be flying further away, it was better to wait until the helicopter was 700-800 meters away and then fire, trying to catch the helicopter with the explosion of the round's self-destruction at 920 meters distance. Chances of hitting a helicopter at this range by the self-destruct mechanism were very limited, but they served to discourage reconnaissance helicopters and air assault landings, particularly if a SA-7 Strela or a Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile was also firing.(17)"

The high explosive OG-7V war head has a maximum kill area of 150M in body armour, as an air burst this is very effective.
So, just like i said - either at EXTREMELY close range (less than 100) and even then multiple shots and from favorable angle, or a VERY small chance at longer range with timed fuse... The later is more to scare, not to kill. 150m is bullshit, a pistol bullet can kill at 1 km but you will not seriosly rely on pistol hitting at such distance...
 

merocaine

New Member
So, just like i said - either at EXTREMELY close range (less than 100) and even then multiple shots and from favorable angle, or a VERY small chance at longer range with timed fuse... The later is more to scare, not to kill. 150m is bullshit, a pistol bullet can kill at 1 km but you will not seriosly rely on pistol hitting at such distance...
150 m is the range to which shrapnal is thrown out which enough force to punch through kevlar, and I did'ent say anywhere that it was easy to hit a chopper, just outlined techniques that maximised your chances of doing so.
So chill out.
 

Chrom

New Member
150 m is the range to which shrapnal is thrown out which enough force to punch through kevlar, and I did'ent say anywhere that it was easy to hit a chopper, just outlined techniques that maximised your chances of doing so.
So chill out.
Nothing wrong about "increased chances". Just note what such "increased chances" are very small in absolute terms.
 
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