Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Two ships, each twice the tonnage of Canterbury . . . a step too far? Perhaps two smaller vessels might suffice, such as a variant of the Italian San Giorgio class, maybe based on the slightly bigger (143 x 21.5 metres) Qatari Fulk, probably with lighter armament & maybe a bit more hangar space. That'd be two ships about the same size as the current one.
That's what my + was for it basically means I would love to see it but I damn well know it not going to happen, at best "San Giorgio class" but most likely some thing like what CJohn posted basically Canterbury with a proper well dock...
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
That's what my + was for it basically means I would love to see it but I damn well know it not going to happen, at best "San Giorgio class" but most likely some thing like what CJohn posted basically Canterbury with a proper well dock...
Either the improved San Giorgio class or a modified RSN Endurance class could provide a usable replacement for HMNZS Canterbury, so long as 2 of the chosen design were brought into service. There would be some compromises regarding either manning or endurance needed to fit within the RNZN limitations.
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Naval officers face charges over sinking of HMNZS Manawanui

Charges have been laid in relation to the loss of Royal New Zealand Navy vessel HMNZS Manawanui, off the coast of Samoa in October 2024.

Three naval officers face a court martial.

The vessel sank off the coast of Samoa after hitting a reef, spilling hundreds of thousands of litres of diesel and oil into the ocean.

One officer faces a charge of negligently causing a ship to be lost and a second faces a charge of negligently permitting a ship to be lost.

If found guilty, negligently causing a ship to be lost carries a maximum penalty of two years in prison.

A third officer faces a charge of negligently permitting a ship to be lost, or in the alternative, negligently failing to perform a duty. In addition, the third officer faces a charge of negligently failing to perform a duty.

A spokesperson for the defence force said the date and location of the court martial were yet to be set.
Naval officers face charges over sinking of HMNZS Manawanui

I wounder if the captain is actually one of them?
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It is normal practice in Commonwealth navies to court martial a Commanding Officer who loses his or her ship. In addition, it is common to court martial the Officer of the Watch and the Navigator in a case where the ship is lost by stranding. So that is the probable three.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Air to Air missiles for our MH-60S Seahawks...

Great to read that the USN is developing AGR-20F FALCO air-to-air missiles for its Seahawks (and also USAF F-16s) to counter drone swarms. Loaded into 7 round LAU-131 launch pods, of which the Seahawk can carry 4, this gives each of our MH-60Rs 28 light air to air missiles. With a Mach 2.9 speed and a 10.5nm range, this air to air punch will be a great asset for our airborne naval assets. The ability of naval helicopters to take out, at a distance, both drones and hostile naval helicopters provides greatly increased tactical options in the upcoming naval battles of the 21st century...
The Mavericks they replace had twice the range...
 

CJR

Active Member
Not really. The AGM-65 Maverick is an air-to-ground PGM, not an air-to-air missile which means that a Maverick would be worth SFA trying to down a hostile drone or other aircraft.
I'd also expect the range of an AGM-65 launched low and slow from a helicopter is significantly less than it's nominal maximum (>22km to >27km depending on variant) which is likely when launched high and fast from a fighter...

Then you've got the question of the value of two shots (with more bang) per helo vs 28 shots per helo.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'd also expect the range of an AGM-65 launched low and slow from a helicopter is significantly less than it's nominal maximum (>22km to >27km depending on variant) which is likely when launched high and fast from a fighter...

Then you've got the question of the value of two shots (with more bang) per helo vs 28 shots per helo.
For me there really is no value question when the targets are completely different types. Even if a Kiwi helicopter was able to carry and launch 100 AGM-65's, that would still provide no relevant capability if the helicopter needed to provide some air-to-air or counter-UAS capability. The target sets are different, so the ability to use a specific missile to engage one type (the Maverick) does not provide any capability vs. hostile aircraft like helicopters or drones.

It would be sort of like arguing whether more MPA's or armoured vehicles should be purchased, as the answer would be determined by what the perceived threat was, since the capabilities provide no crossover.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
For me there really is no value question when the targets are completely different types. Even if a Kiwi helicopter was able to carry and launch 100 AGM-65's, that would still provide no relevant capability if the helicopter needed to provide some air-to-air or counter-UAS capability. The target sets are different, so the ability to use a specific missile to engage one type (the Maverick) does not provide any capability vs. hostile aircraft like helicopters or drones.

It would be sort of like arguing whether more MPA's or armoured vehicles should be purchased, as the answer would be determined by what the perceived threat was, since the capabilities provide no crossover.
Agreed. My mistake. In todays threat environment drones would be probably the highest likely threat? Given how fast and how cheap they can be manufactured?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Agreed. My mistake. In todays threat environment drones would be probably the highest likely threat? Given how fast and how cheap they can be manufactured?
Hard to say, without having a better understanding of the tactical enviros. The potential drone threat in/around Kiwi waters would be minimal IMO, especially for the smaller and shorter-ranged drones that tend to be cheap and able to be deployed in swarms. A major player like the PRC could likely (I do not know what they have in inventory or how they use it) deploy and sustain some sort of MALE or HALE drones in/near NZ but those would likely need a proper air defence capability and TBH even Sea Ceptor might have difficulties hitting drones at HALE flight altitudes.

My personal preference for ship defence vs. swarms of small drones and/or FAC would be for more and more capable small/medium calibre rapid fire guns, generally in the 30mm to 40mm range and able to fire programmable or advanced munitions.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Hard to say, without having a better understanding of the tactical enviros. The potential drone threat in/around Kiwi waters would be minimal IMO, especially for the smaller and shorter-ranged drones that tend to be cheap and able to be deployed in swarms. A major player like the PRC could likely (I do not know what they have in inventory or how they use it) deploy and sustain some sort of MALE or HALE drones in/near NZ but those would likely need a proper air defence capability and TBH even Sea Ceptor might have difficulties hitting drones at HALE flight altitudes.

My personal preference for ship defence vs. swarms of small drones and/or FAC would be for more and more capable small/medium calibre rapid fire guns, generally in the 30mm to 40mm range and able to fire programmable or advanced munitions.
Wouldn't our phalanx ciws mitigate that risk , on our frigates at least? What about the 25mm we have in them and the Opvs and Canterbury.Does Aotearoa have any sort of anti drone defence i wonder ?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Wouldn't our phalanx ciws mitigate that risk , on our frigates at least? What about the 25mm we have in them and the Opvs and Canterbury.Does Aotearoa have any sort of anti drone defence i wonder ?
The Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS does have some CUAS capability as well as anti-FAC after the recent upgrades to my understanding. However it is a bit limited in terms of range (~1.5 km vs. 3km+ for many of the larger calibre 30mm to 40mm guns). From my POV the problems with trying to rely upon a RNZN Phalanx is that the firing arcs are wide but limited, with little to no ability to engage targets approaching from ahead of the ships towards the bow or forward sections. The shorter range of the Phalanx is also compounded by there only being a single such gun per vessel, which means that a drone swarm could not be engaged until within 1.5km and the gun could either be overwhelmed with targets and/or run out of ready rounds before a swarm is downed. Hence my interest in there being both more, and more capable guns. It is my understanding that the RNZN frigates as well as Aotearoa are also armed with mini-Typhoon mountings with 0.5"/12.7mm HMG's or smaller, not useless but also very much a last line of defence vs. very close hostiles.

The OPV's and Canterbury all mount a 25mm gun, either in a Typhoon or MSI mounting, but AFAIK these are all examples of the M242 Bushmaster 25mm chain gun. It does have an effective range out to ~3km, but a max ROF of some 200RPM which would likely be sufficient for anti-FAC duties but might struggle to deal with a drone swarm. This is especially the case sine AFAIK the chain gun itself does not have the ability to fire programmable munitions and being 25mm x 137, lacks advanced munitions like AHEAD which cane make guns more effective vs. aerial threats. Plus there is also the matter of the vessels only having single stabilized mountings with limited fire arcs. The vessels might also have manually operated examples like the Mk 38 available, but I am uncertain if these are in service, how many there might be, or whether they would be effective.
 
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