RoKAF F/A-50

[Ozzy Blizzard]

According to defensenews.com KAI and LM are planing to develop the T-50 light trainer into the F/A-50 to replace the 3rd gen fighters in the RoKAF and released in direct competition to the JF-17 on the export market. Defiantly interesting news for the light combat aircraft market.

S. Korea to Develop Trainer Into Light Fighter

SEOUL - South Korea's arms procurement agency has signed a contract with a local aircraft manufacturer to develop an indigenous trainer into a light attack jet by 2012, agency officials said Dec. 31.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) signed the deal with Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) on Dec. 26 to upgrade and modify the aircraft maker's T-50 Golden Eagle supersonic trainer jet into a light combat aircraft that will replace the South Korean Air Force's aging, lower-class fighters, they said.

Under the deal, valued at about 400 billion won ($305 million), KAI will develop four prototypes of the T-50 trainer into advanced light attack jets by 2012; the new jet will be designated the FA-50. A separate deal on production will be sealed after that, according to DAPA and KAI officials.

Developed in 2006, the $21 million Mach 1.4 T-50 is South Korea's first indigenous supersonic aircraft and the world's only high-performance supersonic trainer in production. KAI is the prime contractor and Lockheed Martin is the principal subcontractor, assisting with development and international marketing.

With the modifications, the FA-50 will have advanced tactical data link systems and precision missile guidance equipment, the officials said.

For example, the jet will be outfitted with the Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) kit, incorporating an internal navigation system and flip-out control fins to guide bombs. The WCMD corrects launch errors, determines atmospheric conditions and computes optimum flight paths and cluster bomb release points.

Armaments will include AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missiles and Joint Direct Attack Munition bombs.

A DAPA source said the agency initially wants to buy about 60 FA-50s to start service in 2013, the same year mass production for export will likely begin.

The Air Force wants to introduce up to 150 FA-50s to replace the A-37 attack aircraft and F-4/F-5 fighters currently serving as a low-tier backup to its higher-class KF-16 and F-15K fighters, the source said.

According to DAPA officials, the FA-50 will be equipped with the EL/M-2032 radar from Israel's Elta Systems, which is credited with a look-up tracking range of 65 to 100 kilometers.

The FA-50 program had been stalled for years over the selection of a radar system. DAPA originally wanted to equip the plane with the lightweight Vixen-500E active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, developed by U.K. firm Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems, and to launch the project last August. But co-developer Lockheed Martin opposed the move, citing protection of its technology, DAPA Commissioner Yang Chi-kyu told a National Assembly session Sept. 25.

"In general, aircraft source code cannot be transferred to other nations," Yang said. "To install the U.K. equipment on the FA-50, the aircraft's source code would have had to be shared with the company concerned, which was impossible."

Sources said Lockheed had been pushing Seoul to select its AN/APG-67(V)4 radar. Lockheed and the U.S. government also rejected the possible selection of the AESA radar, as the T-50 development contract stipulates that the T-50's capabilities should be no better than those of the KF-16 fighter. But the Vixen-500E is believed to be better than the KF-16's AN/APG-68 pulse-Doppler radar, they said.

The contract also bans South Korea from integrating T-50 variants with non-U.S. technology that the U.S. doesn't have, and U.S. officials discouraged the idea of putting European equipment into the aircraft for export, they said.

Lockheed agreed on the installation of the Israeli radar because the system is to be integrated by ITT Defense of the U.S.

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3884475&c=ASI&s=AIR

A couple of questions for the forum.

Is there a place for a light combat aircraft in a moder, western tier 2 air force?
How will the market react to a western built, AMRAAM compatible, supersonic light combat aircraft?

 

[Aussie Digger]

According to defensenews.com KAI and LM are planing to develop the T-50 light trainer into the F/A-50 to replace the 3rd gen fighters in the RoKAF and released in direct competition to the JF-17 on the export market. Defiantly interesting news for the light combat aircraft market.

They are having big trouble getting a radar from the USA for this aircraft...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

They are having big trouble getting a radar from the USA for this aircraft...

They've gone with Elta EL/M-2023 for that reason i think.

 

[ROCK45]

Poland maybe interested

South Korea's Vice Defense Minster is going to Poland according this article below. Poland has advance Vipers and sure they have training needs to fill I assume there using old Russian trainers for at least part of their training. If these T-50s can fill simple air patrol at a lower cost then the Vipers per hour maybe they could serve two task.

Vice Defense Minister to Visit Poland Over T-50 Sale
By Jung Sung-ki
Staff Reporter

Vice Defense Minister Kim Jong-cheon will visit Poland later this month to discuss the European nation's potential purchase of South Korea's T-50 Golden Eagle supersonic trainer jet, a military source said Thursday.

The visit is part of efforts to seek a breakthrough in the sales of the T-50, jointly built by Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) and Lockheed Martin of the United States, the source said.

It is also in line with the government's push to boost its defense exports to help revive the economy, he added.

In a 2009 policy briefing to President Lee Myung-bak late last month, Defense Minister Lee Sang-hee pledged full-fledged support for exporting the nation's defense goods, which he believed would serve as a good national growth engine.

The ministry set the goal of exporting weapons systems and defense items worth $1.3 billion this year. South Korea sold about $1.03 billion worth of defense goods last year, up 22 percent from the previous year's $840 million and the largest amount ever.

``Vice Defense Minister Kim will meet with officials of the Polish defense ministry and discuss the sale of the T-50,'' the source told The Korea Times on condition of anonymity. Kim will visit Poland from Jan. 19 to 23 he said.

Poland is now considering introducing advanced trainer jets, said the source. The Polish government is weighing in on buying Finland's surplus Hawk trainer jets built by BAE Systems of the United Kingdom, he said.

Seoul has been making all-out efforts to sell the T-50, which experts say would help the country become a global leader in arms exports.

The T-50 is the world's only high performance, supersonic trainer in production today. KAI is the prime contractor for the trainer and Lockheed is the principal subcontractor, assisting with development and international marketing.

Last year, the T-50 was included on Singapore's short list of preferred bidders, along with the M-346 of Italy, for the Southeast Asian nation's trainer jet program. Singapore wants to equip its Air Force with 12 to 16 advanced trainers under a $500 million program, according to sources.

The T-50 is also competing with the M-346 for a $1 billion acquisition by the United Arab Emirates, which wants to purchase between 35 and 40 trainers. Other potential customers for T-50s include the United States and Greece.

The single-engine trainer features a variety of technological advances, including digital flight controls and a modern, ground-based training system that helps new pilots to smoothly transition into advanced fighters such as the F-16 and the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

The aircraft has been operational with the South Korean Air Force since 2005 when mass production started. The per-unit price is about $21 million.

Link
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/01/205_37534.html

 

[swerve]

They are having big trouble getting a radar from the USA for this aircraft...

Didn't Lockheed Martin veto their preferred (non-US) radar?

 

[windscorpion]

Will it have too many US sourced parts to be that attractive to many potential customers? There are a lot of F-5s out there though which will need replacing sooner or later.

 

[anan]

IqAF might buy F/A 50?

There are reports that the IqAF Iraqi Airforce is considering buying the F/A 50. What are everyone's thoughts on that?

How does the F/A 50 compare with the Mig 29s in the Iranian and Syrian Airforce? How good would the F/A 50 be at air to air combat if that became necessary?

The IqAF are also buying 36 F 16s (probably block 60.) The Iraqis might use the two F 16 squadrons for air superiority and the F/A 50 for TAS (Tactical Air support) and strategic air strikes.

What is the life cycle cost of a F/A 50 (procurement + multiple upgrades over the decades + maintenance + fuel efficiency)? How does it compare to the competition? Is there any data on its fuel economy relative to other combat aircraft?

 

[Feanor]

Compared to the MiG-29A/B that are the typical ones? Depends. Will the F/A-50 do proper BVR? What is it's goal; multi-role? Air superiority? Point air defense? Ground attack?

In my opinion using a light trainer converted into a fighter, for strategic air strikes seems...... underpowered.

 

[ROCK45]

Aircraft needs

Hi anan
My first question is do you have source to where Iraqi's might be interested in the T-50, never saw that myself.

How does the F/A 50 compare with the Mig 29s in the Iranian and Syrian Airforce? How good would the F/A 50 be at air to air combat if that became necessary?

In certain situations I assume the T-50 would hold its ground but not being a pilot I'm sure added thrust and greater speed could be used to get into a better firing position first, the Fulcrum should hold an edge. If this was not the case more countries would use advance trainers in this role.

The IqAF are also buying 36 F 16s (probably block 60.) The Iraqis might use the two F 16 squadrons for air superiority and the F/A 50 for TAS (Tactical Air support) and strategic air strikes.

Nothing has been signed and a process like this takes years to work out. Training bases would be needed, safe bases where attacks didn't happen. Iraq at some point have to be able to stop the insurgents and outsiders from killing it's people or nothing going work.

Iran's border and Syria's border must be sealed or any hope of Iraq being stable is doom. Lets face it they blew up a bomb at a anti-Israeli demonstration, so "come on" Iraq's government supported by there people have got to really want it. Billions of dollars in aircraft, maintenance facilities, training facilities, base housing, are needed and must be safe.

What is the life cycle cost of a F/A 50 (procurement + multiple upgrades over the decades + maintenance + fuel efficiency)? How does it compare to the competition? Is there any data on its fuel economy relative to other combat aircraft?

To early to tell really but you might be able to dig up maintenance data from South Korea AF. South Korea does have a training school now you may find some information on it, I saw article about it not to long ago. Its an important product South Korea trying to sell so they may be very open with information about it to show off it's capabilities.

 

[anan]

Feanor, I am brand new to this discussion group. Yesterday was my first post. Perhaps there should be an entire new thread dedicated to the IqAF and its requirements.

The F/A 50 will be used for all the purposes the the Iraqis require it, if the IqAF decides to buy it. The greatest short term need is for Tactical Air Support (that is accurate enough to avoid many civilian casualties.) However, the Iraqis are also looking for an aircraft capable of air to air combat and some strategic strikes if necessary. Iraq's primary potential adversaries are Iran, Syria, Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The F/A 50 will need to be multi-role, and be able to hold its own against their air forces as necessary.

The drop in oil from $149 to $37 a barrel has scaled back the IqAF's long term procurement plan. The Iraqi fixed wing combat aircraft might be limited to 36 F 16 block 60s, 36 Light Attack AT-6B, Hellfire armed recon, and F/A 50s in the intermediate run. The IqAF known procurement is listed here:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage15-Equipment.pdf

We could discuss Iraq specific issues on a more appropriate forum (perhaps one of the IqAF.)

How would the F/A 50 rate compared to other COIN TAS fixed wing?

How does the F/A 50 stack up on air superiority? Can it do BVR?

"In my opinion using a light trainer converted into a fighter, for strategic air strikes seems...... underpowered." The main function won't be strategic air strikes, but the IqAF will want to retain that option given its limited supply of other aircraft. When you say underpowered, do you mean small payload? What else do you mean?

 

[ROCK45]

efford

I guess you didn't like my answers but I tried anyway.

How would the F/A 50 rate compared to other COIN TAS fixed wing?

How does the F/A 50 stack up on air superiority? Can it do BVR?

This version hasn't really been produced yet so it's a little early to really tell.

anan could you supply a source to Iraq's interests in the T/A-50

 

[anan]

Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul Qadir Mohammed Jassim Obeidi al-Mifarji and a large MoD (Ministry of Defense) delegation are in South Korea discussing defense procurement:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2899752

The most likely procurement items are the F/A 50, air defense, and Korean artillery. These are the three top priorities for the Iraqi MoD.

Iraq might be more interested in the F/A 50 than the trainer T 50 based on its procurement of other trainers.

This is based on the TO/E of the formed and forming ISF:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
Iraq is less likely interested in Korean tanks or armored vehicles based on their public source procurement announcements.

I want to stay respectful of the forum rules.

To the moderator: "How can I start a new thread discussing the Iraqi Air Force?" That article thread might be the more appropriate to discuss the ISF procurement plan.

 

[ASFC]

Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul Qadir Mohammed Jassim Obeidi al-Mifarji and a large MoD (Ministry of Defense) delegation are in South Korea discussing defense procurement:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2899752

The most likely procurement items are the F/A 50, air defense, and Korean artillery. These are the three top priorities for the Iraqi MoD.

Iraq might be more interested in the F/A 50 than the trainer T 50 based on its procurement of other trainers.

This is based on the TO/E of the formed and forming ISF:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
Iraq is less likely interested in Korean tanks or armored vehicles based on their public source procurement announcements.

I want to stay respectful of the forum rules.

To the moderator: "How can I start a new thread discussing the Iraqi Air Force?" That article thread might be the more appropriate to discuss the ISF procurement plan.

There is no evidence in any of the links that you have provided that Iraq is interested in the T-50, the F/A-50 or any variation of that family et al. It seems to be pure speculation on your part based on a visit to ROK by the Iraq Defence Minister, and nothing solid has turned up in the media or annoucements from either the Iraqis or the Koreans.

If you wish to start a thread on the Iraq Air Force, use the 'thread starter/post new topic' button which should be at the top of the Aviation Forum page.

 

[anan]

Just created a new IqAF/Iraqi Air Defense thread. We can discuss why the Iraqi Air Force is considering F/A 50 aircraft there.

I don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the F/A 50. What competitor aircraft are most similar to it in multi role capabilities? Note I am referring to the light attack combat version rather than the the T 50 trainer.

What are the best metrics to judge aircraft such as the F/A 50 from a multi role combat aircraft perspective?

My metrics might be:
- life cycle cost adjusted for service life
- fuel economy
- training complexity for maintenance (is maintenance training more similar to the type of maintenance needed for an F 16 than the type of maintenance needed for other aircraft?)
- performance in close air support (CAS)
- performance in air superiority functions
- performance in strategic air strikes (likely to be a tangential role for this aircraft)

I know that I just asked a bunch of questions and gave no answers. That is because I don't have any answers.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Compared to the MiG-29A/B that are the typical ones? Depends. Will the F/A-50 do proper BVR? What is it's goal; multi-role? Air superiority? Point air defense? Ground attack?

In my opinion using a light trainer converted into a fighter, for strategic air strikes seems...... underpowered.

Light attack and point air defence will be its primary roles. AFAIK the F/A-50 will be BVR capable, its equipped with a capable MSA radar. In any case the platform is cheap, easy to fly, long on hours and quite maneuverable. However it is designed as a second tier platform, to back up RoKAF's F-16's and SlamEagles. Its also perfect for western aligned air forces that cant really afford an F-16. I mean the thing can still perform all the roles the F-16 does, just with less effect. Not bad for a brand spanking new fighter with a price tag under 30 mil.

How would the F/A-50 rate to other COIN TAS fixed wing?

AFAIK it will come stock with maverick, which is a nice capability, in addition to JDAM. So assuming it will be compatible with a targeting pod it should be able to employ comparable weaponry to the F-16. The main issue is the payload, i doubt the F/A-50 would be able to haul a Mk84 warhead very far, if at all. Thats why you really need this platform as part of a high low mix, because there are some jobs it cant do.

How does the F/A-50 stack up on air superiority? Can it do BVR?

The F/A-50 is basically a miniature F-16 with a G-404 under the bonnet. It enjoys relaxed stability and the F-16's basic aerodynamic layout, that in addition to its tiny weight means the F/A-50 should turn on a dime. In WVR, with a modern weapons fit it should more than hold its own.

The platform is BVR capable, the EL/M-2032 is a capable system, although it is very small (thus range limited). Its supersonic (bonus) and would have a small RCS due to its size. The major issue with its BVR performance is the size of the radar, which would mean in a stand alone engagement vs. a medium to heavy weight 4th gen threat will probably achieve first look and possibly first shot, which is not good. However if the F/A-50 is equipped with LINK 16 and have targeting information sent from an off board sensor, the platform should more than hold their own in a BVR environment.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Maverick firing:

[ame="http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=y6v2Akmq-Es"]YouTube - T50 trainer firing AGM-65 Maverick[/ame]

T-50:

[ame="http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7nunPDj8z7E"]YouTube - Made in Korea! T-50[/ame]

 

[Feanor]

The platform is BVR capable, the EL/M-2032 is a capable system, although it is very small (thus range limited). Its supersonic (bonus) and would have a small RCS due to its size. The major issue with its BVR performance is the size of the radar, which would mean in a stand alone engagement vs. a medium to heavy weight 4th gen threat will probably achieve first look and possibly first shot, which is not good. However if the F/A-50 is equipped with LINK 16 and have targeting information sent from an off board sensor, the platform should more than hold their own in a BVR environment.

Problem is Iraq isn't planning any AEW&C aircraft as it stands. So the best we can expect, is to see F-16 lighting up targets for the F/A-50.

 

[swerve]

Just created a new IqAF/Iraqi Air Defense thread. We can discuss why the Iraqi Air Force is considering F/A 50 aircraft there..

We can also discuss the probability of the Iraqi Air Force buying aircraft with Israeli radars.

 

[anan]

Maybe this should be discussed on the IqAF Iraqi Air Defense thread, but the Iraqis do buy Israeli weapons. Iraq almost certainly is the least anti Israeli Arab country.

FEANOR is right that the IqAF hasn't publicly discussed buying any AEW&C. How well can F-16 light up targets for F/A 50s?

Ozzy Blizzard, thanks for all the info. Hmmm.

Mk84 is 2,000 pounds. Could the F/A 50 carry two Mk84s a short distance (if the F/A 50 is emptied of other munitions? Could an F/A 50 take off with only one Mk84? Would the plane be imbalanced at lift off?

"Light attack and point air defense will be its primary roles." Yup. What is the F/A 50's strenght in point air defense?

 

[eckherl]

Looks like General Dynamics will be making a 20mm gun system for this bird, contract was awarded and signed a week or so ago.