Re-arming mid air

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Whereas aerial refueling increases the range of an aircraft almost indefinitely, bombers still must return to base for rearming as they are limited in the amount of weapons they carry. However, when the target is situated hundreds of miles away from a friendly base, precious time and resources are lost on flights to base for rearming. Furthermore, in some cases the political situation precludes the use of friendly military bases near the operating theater.

To resolve these problems, the Israeli company Far Technologies developed the Airborne Rearming System (ABRA; currently patent pending) in conjunction with the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) engineering group that conducted preliminary system design. The ABRA concept is similar in many respects to airborne refueling, with a number of notable modifications. Far Technologies' system comprises a rearming plane (a C-130, C-130c, C-17, or even a C-5) with an internal bomb storage area and loading device consisting of a large aft door with a modified remote-driven robotic arm (boom) equipped with a day-night camera as well as sensors, and, on the attack aircraft, a special smart pylon to receive the arms from the boom. Each C-130c would be able to carry a payload of up to sixteen 2,000 lb (907 kg) bombs (such as an MK-84), while larger aircraft would easily be able to rearm a full squadron of planes. (A C-17 could potentially carry up to seventy MK-84s and a C-5, around 100.)

http://www.tfot.info/content/view/81/?PHPSESSID=fe58e41cc16632ba0c80f2c96c1fd1b7

This is a surprising concept, surprising because no one has come up with it before. I like the idea, and trust the Israelis to come up with something novel and useful, my question is, how likely is this to work. The weight of the robotics would be big enough, let alone the munitions. Besides the obvious danger to both the crew flying the reloader and the Fighter, which is the same for air re-fuelers, would the risk be worth it?
Either way, kool idea:rolleyes:
 

WaterBoy

New Member
The USAF also applied for a patent covering the same concept in July;
http://http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220060145025%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20060145025&RS=DN/20060145025

My initial thoughts are the large changes in weight & moment arm of the reloader would cause some significant centre of gravity problems for the 'reloader' aircraft, and the sudden increase of weight for the rearming aircraft would cause instantaneous performance problems with regard to formation flying / keeping.

Also, rearming areas would require population / collateral sensitive selection, which could be problematic.

It would be worth it though to see the twitching the word 'turbulence' would induce the the 'reloader' crew! :shudder

Regards,

WaterBoy
 

LancerMc

New Member
While I think the basic idea is sound, the practical application of aerial rearming is beyond the aviation technology of today. Waterboy brings up a number of important issues about aircraft stability. There is also the concern of prop wash or jet blast from the rearming aircraft in hampering the attack aircraft. If I was an F-16 pilot, I wouldn't want to be that close to the backend of any aircraft. I would also be concerned if the aircraft had to make some type of evasive maneuvers or hit a type of bad turbulence the rearming mechanisms would shear off due to stress. The equipment to refuel airplanes in mid-air is already prone to damage; I couldn’t imagine what that kind of damage rearming equipment would do through.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
This concept is ridiculous. Comparing ariel rearming to refueling is absurd. To hook up to a Texaco is hard enough but to stay steady for a robotic arm to load ordinance while in flight is impossible. There are several factors that make it impractical and outright dangerous.

1) Hooking up to a refueling boom is HARD but you only have to lock up once.
Locking up to your payload has to be done for each hard point thus driving the pilot insane!

2) Could they even make a retractable boom that can carry a 2000lb bomb while under stress... I doubt it.

3) Is the aircraft going to fly upside down while rearming... it will be kinda hard to fit payloads on the wings without actually clipping them!

4) I certainly wouldn't want to load up ordinance with a little thing called turbulance around!

5) Do they really think the auto stabalization is going to be enough to counter the shift in weight? It's pretty obvious in flight characterstics dropping a 2,000lb load on one side having yet to drop the other. To expect us to stabalize while that little pecker is roaming around the bird throwing the weight balance off and causing airflow problems will REALLY tick me off!

Just another example of engineers expecting pilots to do it all. :shudder
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Why don't airforces simply start buying aircraft with more capacity to carry ordnance INITIALLY if they are running out of weapons on current tac fighters? If you want a bomber, buy one from scratch, don't try to turn a fighter into one.

Alternatively invest in weapons such as SDB, Brimstone/JCM which allow fighters to carry greater weapon loads on existing hardpoints???

This idea, whilst someone obviously thinks is technically feasible, seems ridiculous to me as well.
 

Michael RVR

New Member
It's been suggested that a blimp mothership that UAV's could land on would make a truckload more sense.. and i'd agree with it.
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Aerial re-arming is an interesting concept.

There are obvious difficulties is realizing such a system in practice, due to turbulence, change in C of G etc.

The US patent mentions some of the other problems that need to be addressed. Special multi-shot pylons and launchers would be required that would allow the munitions to be locked into place. Aerial weapons have aerodynamic surfaces to control the weapon in flight; in transit form re-among aircraft these surfaces would have to be protected from the airflow to avoid unnecessary forces on the boom and inadvertent motion.

Other issues are how long would it take to re-load and the aircraft.

Rather than use a convention approach perhaps a clutch of weapons could be loaded in a canister, the cover of which could be ditched before deploying the weapons.

At present such a system does appear to be impractical, however recently the first wholly automatic air-to-air refuelling has been successfully been demonstrated and that UAVs (and manned aircraft) have carried out fully automatic landings on carriers.

Although musing about the technicalities of how such a system would work is stimulating, it is worth considering why such a system has been proposed? The US patent gives us a clue.

“[0005] Shrinking defense budgets, combined with the increasing needs of the United States to project its military power often on short notice throughout the world, requires the armed forces to do more with less equipment and fewer personnel. Recently, as can be seen in the case of the war against Iraq, there has been a lack of consensus among allies forcing the United States to "go it alone" when prosecuting the war against terrorism. The nations of Europe, for example, lying closer as they do to areas of turmoil such as the Middle East, are often reluctant to take hard stances against terrorists who lie within an automobile ride from their borders. As can be seen most recently with Turkey during operation "Iraqi Freedom", nations are often reluctant to promptly provide forward operating locations or to grant flyover rights for United States military aircraft lest these nations seem to be associated too closely with United States military initiatives. The delays caused by these diplomatic barriers can seriously impact United States' combat operational planning.

[0006] What is needed therefore is a method to not only refuel U.S. military aircraft while in flight, so as to extend mission operational effectiveness, but also a means to continually reload the munitions which have been expended during combat operations without having to return to either a distant friendly nation's ground bases, or in the case of naval airpower, to a distant aircraft carrier, to obtain more munitions.”

Recall that B2s have flown bombing missions to the Middle-East from their home at the Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri, USA. Some of these missions took nearly two days to complete.


(There have been plans to fly B2s from a base in the UK and Diego Garcia, but so far the facilities have not been constructed).

The US patent indicates the difficulty of having fight at long range when close range bases cannot be established. Also bear in mind that this patent has been prepared by the USAF and while it does mention navy carriers as bases, having an aerial re-arming capability could be used as an argument against the requirement for the projection of power from the sea, the traditional role of the USN.

There are also other clues in the patent (I have snipped these paragraphs a little).

“[0022] There are several advantages ….including providing a method for striking strategic targets without regard to forward operating locations or airspace agreements; extending indefinitely the Close Air Support mission in support of forces on the ground….. The invention thus fills the traditional void in airpower theory, that airpower cannot be effective in fighting the unconventional war against insurgents; using the present invention and an aerial task force, as soon as targets `pop up` they can be hit immediately.

The key here is that CAS could be provided on a taxi-rank system, with armed combat aircraft held forward, ready to attack pop-up targets; whilst set-back from the combat area, combat aircraft could be re-armed and refuelled, before returning to the front line. Obviously at some point the combat aircraft would have to return to base and land, for servicing. This approach would be suitable for UCAV operations, if aerial re-arming could be achieved the limiting factors for manned aircraft would be the endurance of the pilot. Note that the length of current missions extended by in-flight refuelling is usually related to maintenance issues, such as the quantity of engine oil carried.

If aerial re-arming were to be included in the original requirement for a new platform (probably a UCAV), I am sure that someone would find a way to make it work.

In the past stranger things have been achieved, parasitic fighters deployed and recovered from US strategic bombers, catching film canisters ejected from satellites in space when parachuting to earth with modified C-130s, (similar aircraft were also used to pick up troops from the ground without landing). Even concepts such as nuclear powered aircraft have been considered, so I would no write-off in-flight re-arming, just yet.

During the Vietnam War the US did many experiments with recovery systems and the use of drones in general, other countries including the UK conducted similar trials, some of this work involved capturing drones in the air, but I do not think they were re-deployed.

Michael RVR mentioned operating UAVs from “Blimps”, during the first world war fighter aircraft were slung from under airships to provide protection to the airship from fighters and also to extend the range of scout aircraft. Such aircraft could hook back onto the airship.

The advantage of modern airships is that it is no longer necessary to have large ground crews. Along the US Mexican boarder tethered balloons are used to place a powerful radar antenna high in the air to monitor the boarder for illegal drug smugglers. They have some problems, particularly when a balloon has to land it leaves a gap in the fence.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/tars.htm

Modern airships may offer greater flexibility. Having the capacity and to deploy UAVs quickly to go a take a detailed look at a potential threat and if necessary attack would be very useful in areas with leaky boarders.


IMHO the first use of this concept is likely to be a system to extend the endurance, availability and flexibility of small UAVs. These aircraft are often quite slow and as a result take considerable time to transit out and back from an area of operation. Using an automatic boom system, similar to the one recently used for the re-fuelling demonstration and withdrawing the UAV inside the cargo aircraft (C-130/C-17), could allow a swarm of UAVs to persist for long periods over the target area.

Re-arming outside the aircraft would be much more difficult.


Chris
 

Ths

Banned Member
I think airial rearming has been introduced:

It is called PGM.

For the same take-off weight more missions can be performed.

It is more or less equivalent to say a 50% cut in specific fuel consumption - in so far as the comparison to airial refuelling holds.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
....maybe pilots could be swapped mid air,and basic maintanence carried out by
flying workshops,allowing 100% availibility of an aircraft! only land the thing for complete over haul orMLU! :p:
 

Ths

Banned Member
The Peacemaker history is actually quite interesting:

It started at the outbreak of WW2 when there was serious doubt as to the continued survival of Britain. The USA wanted a bomber that could strike back in case Britain fell.
When England survived the project was put on hold, as there were other options.
After the war: Basing bombers in Europe was fraught with problems, not the least the thought of placing strategic asset within enemy reach, so the Peacemaker was brought out of the suspended animation.
The Korean war showed prop-bombers to be rather vulnerable to AAA, so the Peacemaker got extra jet engines to increase hight over target.
That didn't solve the problem of fighters though. So the idea of the parasite fighter was tried - I believe the F-84 was tried as a proof of concept - and designed a parasite fighter to be launched and recovered from the bomber. The idea was dropped probably due to:
1. The parasite fighter was a nasty little bugger to fly.
2. Launching and recovering a fighter in midair more or less gives all the disadvantages of carrier operations to say the least.
3. It took something away from the original idea with a bomber - taht is delivering bombs to the enemy not target practise.

The problem was solved: But it took the development of the thin wing by Boeing in the B-47 - fine plane - had a problem though: The ailerons didn't work as the wing flexed the opposite way on application of said ailerons.
Could fly higher than fighters though - for a time; the Navy spoiled that idea with the photo Banshee which reached (if memory serves me) 70.000' - took all day to get there and even longer to get down properly, but it was disconcerting to have navy planes ABOVE your much waunted and expensive bomber - especially as the air force couldn't hit the enemy (err Navy) on their carriers.

To make matters worse the Navy started butting in with their usual impertinent suggestions: They wanted a whole new class of carriers with shorter range supersonic bombers: The A-5 Vigilant.

But then with the B-52 the enemy (err Navy) got what they so richly deserved. Unfortunately theat meant the Air Force had to put fuel into the damned thing to give it the range needed, plus a host of tankers. Finally some jerk developed the idea of putting an engine on the B-52 that didn't immediately burn off the fuel in a display of soot and noise. So the Air Force was stuck with a lot of semicompetent B-52 D,F and G - only capable of scaring minor communists - and B-52H which meant scouring the countryside for hefty farms hand (the type that lift the combined harvester with one hand and rotate tyres with other - using on his fingers to tighten the bolts).

To add to the trouble: Womens lib: Now even the most petite shrew considered herself capable of flying a B-52 - which is physically impossible.

Strategic bombing is a nasty, dirty and vicious war. The Russkies?? Who cares - they self destruct.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
I always thought the mothership idea was retarded. You would have thought the arial refueling concept would have been first on their minds before trying to launch aircraft out of bombays. :nutkick

Do you have a problem with NAVY?
 

Ths

Banned Member
Big E.
No I don't have anything remotely connected with a problem with NAVY - but the US Air Force has.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Big E: Have You tried sitting in a P-38 on a shuttle escort mission - fourteen hours and no heater ??? Escort for a B-36 -Well about the double!
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Big E.
No I don't have anything remotely connected with a problem with NAVY - but the US Air Force has.
Ok, the way you worded it I thought YOU might be USAF... but this says your Danish.

Big E: Have You tried sitting in a P-38 on a shuttle escort mission - fourteen hours and no heater ??? Escort for a B-36 -Well about the double!
No... have you?
 

Ths

Banned Member
Big E. P-38; no I haven't flown; but I've read the reports. From them it was very clear that it was close to impossible to escort bombers with airial refuelling with the technology at the time. Consider that the B-36 had a spare crew.
I know military flying is always on the boarderline of what is possible (as the parasite fighter concept shows); but just consider making a night trap on a bomber!! And that was judged to be the easy solution!



And I see the Navy still has issues with the Air Force. Actually Danish experiences with both services are excellent - both can even take advice - naturally after having made a holy and expensive mess of it: I here -among other things refer to the USNavy idea of operating with Battleships in the Baltic. I mean the slightest error and the BB would have been domoted to a coastal battery - which was actually what we did with some of the big guns left by the German occupation - dispensed with the ship though.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
And I see the Navy still has issues with the Air Force. Actually Danish experiences with both services are excellent - both can even take advice - naturally after having made a holy and expensive mess of it: I here -among other things refer to the USNavy idea of operating with Battleships in the Baltic. I mean the slightest error and the BB would have been domoted to a coastal battery - which was actually what we did with some of the big guns left by the German occupation - dispensed with the ship though.
I don't see why you think USN still has issues with USAF. All of your examples are over half a century old. You know it is the 21st century... :confused:
 

Ths

Banned Member
Big E.

Yes it was a good vintage!
I remember a suggestion of deciding which was the better fighter F-14 og F-15 - and the fact the F-18 is build on the one the Air Force wouldn't use.
There are recent examples; but what a wonderfull thing discipline is.
 
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