Link: Air Force blames pilot for F-22 crash - despite plane fault that left him with no oxygen | Mail Online
So the oxygen system problem continues. Did anybody else laughed at the genius who said the pilot was too distracted trying to breath?
Pilot error determined to be the cause of November F-22 crash
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So the oxygen system problem continues. Did anybody else laughed at the genius who said the pilot was too distracted trying to breath?
The finding of pilot error was not arrived at by a single person. The AF takes the loss of an aircraft and pilot vey seriously indeed.
http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf
The link to the report of the Accident Investigation Board convened to investigate the crash. In it one can find the reasons for the finding of pilot error as the primary cause for the accident. AIB's are very thorough in their investigations and have access to all the necessary resources and technical expertise needed to determine the cause of an accident. i
http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf
The link to the report of the Accident Investigation Board convened to investigate the crash. In it one can find the reasons for the finding of pilot error as the primary cause for the accident. AIB's are very thorough in their investigations and have access to all the necessary resources and technical expertise needed to determine the cause of an accident. i
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It's certainly easy to sit back and critique the pilot's error after the fact. However, the normal human bring requires ample supply of oxygen in order to function properly, unlike machines. The pilot had a deprivation of oxygen, which interfered with his ability to act in the most rational manner. A person can pass out within several seconds if the deprivation is severe enough, i.e. a blood choke.
The underlying factor in this case, is the plane's known problem. The oxygen system of F-22 had dozens of documented failure. It was only earlier this year that flight ceiling was restricted to around 20,000 feet. The grounding of the fleet had not resolve the issue. Instead, the military left a known issue unsolved and resumed flights. To blame the pilot for plane with well known system flaw, in my view, smells of sweeping the dirt under.
Dude.
There is no evidence that the pilot was hypoxic. In fact the evidence (recovery attempted 3sec prior to the impact) shows that the pilot was not hypoxic.
The underlying factor was not the OBOGS. The OBOGS System did not fail. It shut down because it relies on Bleed air to run. The Bleed air system was shut down by the F-22's computers. This resulted in no pressure being delivered to the pilots mask and "severly restricted breating".
If the F-22 is anything like other teen series jets and has similar pressurisation schedules (given the altitudes that it flies at I suggest that it actually has a higher relative pressurisation than teen series jets i.e. lower cabin alt at a given altitude) I believe it is likely that Capt Haney could have removed his mask and had a reasonable useful time of conciousness.
The main issue was Capt Haney did not look at his instruments for over 30 seconds, whilst in an aggressive descent, coupled with some inadvertent control inputs, became disorientated (and descending even more steeply and quickly) which led to an initiated recovery too late to avoid the ground.
Pilots are humans, and humans make mistakes...
What you could be arguing rather than blindly blaming the OBOGS is the ergonomics of the situation (survival suit restricting mobility - worn for the first time of the winter on that night, NVG's impacting the canopy restricting mobility, emergency oxygen actuation ring situated below and behind the pilot, sevely restricted breathing... etc... ) would have made it a very difficult situation and that perhaps the cockpit ergonomics made an accident like this a distinct possibility.
Link to the actual AIB which works http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf
South, thanks for posting a working link..
My first reaction upon reading the headlines that the pilot was at fault was that an injustice was being done. But after reading the AIB report and following the discussions on another forum populated by AF pilots and techs, I was able to understand the basis for the findings. Things have to be studied with dispassionate objectivity if lessons are to be learned and I believe the AIB conducted a professional and thorough investigation.
Air Force Brat
Member
Apparently not legoboy, the OBOGS system wasn't the culprit this time, but the onboard computer shut down the bleed air, which runs the OBOGS system. I believe south is on the right track when he discusses the ergonomics of the situation, although I will say that Capt Haney likely induced a severe PIO in his haste to descend to a lower altitude. The F-22 is a highly responsive aircraft, pitch, roll, and yaw response of said aircraft is mind numbingly fast. Our most sincere condolenses to Capt Haney's wife, children, family and mates. As an air force brat, I was always concerned that my Dad would bite it one day, especially when he was assigned to MACVSOG and was in Saigon during TET. He did come home in one piece, for which I will always be eternally gratefull, although he did succumb to Multiple Myeloma on 09/8/02. Godspeed Capt. Haney
Seems to fall under the category of "Gremllin" and has proven elusive so far to even the brightest and most experienced minds the air force can muster.
The investigation didn't solely blame it on pilot error, there were other contributing factors including training, bulky winter gear and NVG's hindering his ability to see everything in the cockpit. That said, when a flyable aircraft is flown into the ground, the pilot is one of the contributing factors.
Are you trying to tell us that an experienced pilot induced Pilot Induced Occillations which caused the prang? If the flight management software is this dodgy, how the hell do they fight or sustain air combat with these aircraft? If what you are suggesting is true - these things are death traps.
Or you are smoking the wrong type of weed...
In the recreation of the conditions leading to the crash, didn't the pilot inadvertently nudge the controls while attempting to activate his emergency oxygen supply. He was apparently fixated on the EOS to the exclusion of full awareness of his aircraft's altitude and attitude, something easily correctable by refering to his instruments.
Everything is easy to do while you are asphyxiating…
Air Force Brat
Member
Alakan F-22 Crash
Marc, I'll leave the weed to you my boy, as south pointed out, Capt Haney was likely unable to pull the pin activating his emergeny o-2, as he attempted to pull the pin he likely became dissoriented. He may have intended to initiate a rapid descent to a more breathable altitude, however in the process he apparently lost roll control and as a result was unable to recover the aircraft, I surmised that he likely initiated a very sharp controll input as he attempted to recover the aircraft. The aircraft did exactly what it is designed to do. From your comments I will also surmise that you are not a pilot, however since this is defense talk, we all make comments outside of our areas of expertise. I would imagine that most of us who are pilots have found ourselve is similar situations as Capt Haney, but light aircraft are very forgiving as are most civil aircraft.
I believe you guys are making more out of this than there is, and not considering the time, conditions and events involved. Without rereading the report which I read almost a week ago the aircraft left it's altitude and impacted the ground in around a minute or less. A minute can be a lifetime but in aircraft, at night, with malfunctioning equipment that minute seems to actually last about.... what you would think is around 3 seconds.
At 57,000 I think he felt the aircraft could fly all by itself while he tried to respond to his O2 issues. Normally this is true. Unfortunately, it was night and he was unaware of the aircrafts attitude, relationship to earth and his rapid decent until it was obviously too late to recover, even though he did try. Data also suggests that his clothing/gear interfered with the controls placing the aircraft in an even more severe attitude. He could have taken his mask off, you don't suffocate any faster than if you simply held your breath. It's an unfortunate mishap, hopefully the lessons learned will save the next guy.
At 57,000 I think he felt the aircraft could fly all by itself while he tried to respond to his O2 issues. Normally this is true. Unfortunately, it was night and he was unaware of the aircrafts attitude, relationship to earth and his rapid decent until it was obviously too late to recover, even though he did try. Data also suggests that his clothing/gear interfered with the controls placing the aircraft in an even more severe attitude. He could have taken his mask off, you don't suffocate any faster than if you simply held your breath. It's an unfortunate mishap, hopefully the lessons learned will save the next guy.
Pilot error
Well ... If "Pilot error determined to be the cause..." could the report determine what caused the pilot error? An answer to this issue really would save the next pilots!I would imagine that most of us who are pilots have found ourselve is similar situations as Capt Haney, but light aircraft are very forgiving as are most civil aircraft.
Saddly and quite simply he stopped flying the aircraft and stopped monitoring his flight instruments as he attempted to activate his emergency oxygen. This has caused mishaps ever since man started flying. The other factors such as the failed O2 system, bulky clothing, NVG's etc were contributing factors to why he stopped flying the aircraft.
Pilot error
In case those above determined the pilot error, emergency oxigen activation is not designed for fighter aircraft! We should understand that the pilot was enough trained and experienced not to be in error due to night flight and so on. Or, intensive training should be performed in activating this system (I mean: is it normal to complicate the pilot tasks? The computer on board are monitoring O2, so that it may be programmed...).
Very much doubt I'm your boy.
No issue with that - have not argued to the contrary.
Probable and logical, I didn't 'call' you on that.
The report does not say he lost roll control - he probably lost spatial orientation (i.e. had no idea which way was up) which is very different from losing roll control which would indicate control system or airframe malfunction.
Why surmise? The report is here: http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf
Then again, as a pilot, you probably know more about what happened than the AIB
.What's that? Auger into a mountain or obey the pilots commands?
From your offhand mention of PIO in the manner you did I would have assumed you weren't one either. Any pilot worth his/her salt would know that Pilot Induced Occilation normally affects inexperienced pilots 'chasing' the aircraft as the control inputs lag the actual flight path variations. You don't have to be a pilot to realise that PIO would not be something that caused this prang - you also don't need to be a pilot to read the AIB report which did not even mention PIO. You also don't have to be a pilot to detect that someone with 5 minutes experience on MSFS is tossing around Important Aviation Sounding Expressions trying to look like he knows more that us poor non pilots (that's near a dammit to a quote from a military trained pilot mate of mine. The Major was a tad more disparaging, but I won't get carried away here).
Just because: In April 1992, the first YF-22 crashed while landing at Edwards Air Force Base, California. The test pilot Tom Morgenfeld escaped without injury. The cause of the crash was found to be a flight control software error that failed to prevent a pilot-induced oscillation.[235]. From: Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Does not mean that all F22's suffer from the problem. This was a YF-22 being flown by a test pilot - the flight control software was modified after the incident - well before Capt Haney's aircraft was probably even constructed.
Usually only when I smell BS
What civil aircraft do you you fly that requires oxygen generated by an OBOGGS unit? I doubt you have found yourself at a tad over Mach 1 at 57,000 feet plus using NVG's at night, I seriously doubt you have found yourself in a similar situation as Capt Haney. But good to know that most light aircraft and civil air are very forgiving.I would imagine that most of us who are pilots have found ourselve is similar situations as Capt Haney, but light aircraft are very forgiving as are most civil aircraft.
Vale Capt Haney.