Pakistan Navy will buy U-214

yess

New Member
PN very close to U-214 deal
KARACHI: In a departure from the past practice of acquiring submarines from France, Pakistan will buy three German Type 214 submarines.
Walter Freitag, the chief executive officer of the HDW, the largest conventional submarine maker in the world, told our sources on Tuesday in an exclusive interview at the IDEAS 2008 here that his company had finalised technical specifications with the navy to build three Type 214 submarines in Pakistan.

“The commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent,” he said, hoping the final contract in this regard will be signed soon. This is the first time that a clear picture of the billion-dollar deal that the Pakistan Navy is expected to sign in coming months has emerged. Earlier, during mid-90s, the navy had selected three French Agosta 90-B submarines, which were in addition to the two acquired earlier. The deal had generated a lot of controversy at that time.

This time French firm Armaris had offered to supply Pakistan three updated single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines — all-French version of the Franco-Spanish Scorpene boat — equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal totalling about $1.2 billion.

However, Walter Freitag said he did not see that kind of controversy enveloping this project perceived during the 90s. “The Pakistan Navy understands submarines and ours are the best,” he said, rejecting claims of competitors that the Greek Navy had rejected Type 214.

“In the Hellenic Navy’s case, a neutral surveyor was appointed, who decided that the submarine was technically OK and ready for commissioning,” he said. The HDW CEO said the Type 214 was technologically more advanced than those of competitors. “We use higher grade steel material, which allows greater diving depth,” he said. “Also, we have fuel cell AIPs and can integrate Harpoons with the Type 214.”

The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months. Walter Freitag stated that they would be using facilities at the Karachi Shipyard for building Type 214 and minimal upgrade would be required. He added that the Type 214 was 100 per cent German and there was no chance of embargo on it in any case.

Meanwhile, authoritative sources told that the decision to acquire Type 214 over the French submarine was made not only because the submarine was more advanced than the French Marlin, but also because many countries had deployed the Type 214 submarines, so there would be no issue of spares.

They said Turkey would be acquiring six Type 214s, South Korea had ordered six more in addition to three ordered earlier, Portugal had bought two, besides several bought by the German Navy. As such, supportability for the Type 214 for the next 30-35 years would not be a major concern.

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PN has a requirement for 10-12 new subs by the end of 2019, U-214 is one of them and most likely PN will also induct nuclear powered subs.
U-214 will have alot of turkish indigenous systems that they are developing for their own U-boats.
 

Falstaff

New Member
PN has a requirement for 10-12 new subs by the end of 2019, U-214 is one of them and most likely PN will also induct nuclear powered subs.
Do you have a source for that and/or further information on that? Because otherwise I'd change most likely to "utterly most unlikely". Till 2019 that's a mere 11 years, so where would the PN get these boats from and how are they supposed to gather enough money?

U-214 will have alot of turkish indigenous systems that they are developing for their own U-boats.
Like which systems?
 

Type59

New Member
Wow so this is where some of the IMFs 7.5 billion is going. What a waste.
When your country is invaded then a mere couple billion is nothing. IMF money is not gonna be used, thats to pay off debts and bonds that have matured

GDP to foreign debt is around 30 percent.
 
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KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Pakistan isn't being invaded, nor will new subs defend the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

To my way of thinking it is rather hypocritical to go cap in hand to the IMF for a loan and then announce the purchase of two subs.
 

BilalK

New Member
Regarding the 12-14 submarine fleet:

Plans call for a substantial increase in the size of the Navy, a force that historically has been chronically short of platforms and behind its sister services in weapon development. New destroyers, frigates and corvettes are planned or on order. Capt. Asif Majeed Butt, the Navy's director of public relations, said the submarine arm itself is hoped to grow to 12 to 14 boats from the current three Agosta 90Bs and two Agosta 70s.
Not sure about Turkish, but Pakistani U214s will be equipped with a locally developed and produced TAS called ATAS:
Development was undertaken with possible export sales in mind, and therefore support issues were factored into the program. The ATAS is expected to be retrofitted to existing submarines as a stand-alone unit on the Agosta-70s, and integrated into the SUBTICS combat management system on the Agosta-90Bs. It will also be fitted to the next-generation submarine, currently expected to be the HDW Type-214, for which negotiations are at an advanced stage, and the future corvette, for which the Turkish Milgem corvette is the likely candidate
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3778080

...also of note, Pakistan is nearing the finalization of MILGEM - 4 ships:

He said the three defense firms have merged forces to supply Pakistan’s demand for corvette ships. “This is a four ship corvette project. The first ship will be designed and built in Turkey, while the three others will be built in Pakistan’s military shipyards. This is really a comprehensive project. It is expected to last 10 years,” he said.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=160147&bolum=100
 
Like which systems?
Not to hijack this thread but this was reported on July 23, 2008.
This will be the first time that Turkey includes AIP submarines in its inventory. Turkish industrial participation in the project will be worth around 80 percent of the total value of the deal, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said, speaking to the press following yesterday’s meeting of the Executive Committee of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM).

“For the first time Turkey will receive 80 percent of the offset pledge [from a foreign competitor] in a navy project. This indicates the increased level of Turkish defense technology,” he said.

Around 20 systems and sub-systems will be produced by local Turkish industry and integrated into the submarines, he added, with the first submarine to be delivered in 2015.
http://www.turkishny.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26954&Itemid=6
 

Type59

New Member
Pakistan isn't being invaded, nor will new subs defend the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

To my way of thinking it is rather hypocritical to go cap in hand to the IMF for a loan and then announce the purchase of two subs.
Purchases of sub was made during last government. The economic crisis was non existant.

Also there are larger issues like conflict with India. Afghanistan is seen as a lesser theater of operation.

Also there are larger political issues, the civilian government has little room to move. They already disbanded the National Security Council, willing to send ISI chief to be grilled by indian intelligence, tried to place ISI under Interior ministry and suggested Pakistan would disarm its nukes.

Cutting defence budget is not gonna be popular with Military.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Purchases of sub was made during last government. The economic crisis was non existant.

Also there are larger issues like conflict with India. Afghanistan is seen as a lesser theater of operation.

Also there are larger political issues, the civilian government has little room to move. They already disbanded the National Security Council, willing to send ISI chief to be grilled by indian intelligence, tried to place ISI under Interior ministry and suggested Pakistan would disarm its nukes.

Cutting defence budget is not gonna be popular with Military.
Sorry not to dipute any opinion or sources, but I think no administration in Pakistan will crazy enough to disarm her nukes. It will be politically suicidal, and will only open Military take offer with strong popular support.

Pakistas now after the situation in Mumbai will be feel more and more under Indian pressure. Economic crisis or not, IMF loan or not, it seems Pakistan will find money to provide enough capable deterences (conventionally or nuclear).
 

mysterious

New Member
Ladies, lets not discuss politics here. The Mumbai fiasco is all blatant drama to malign Pakistan as no verifiable evidence of any Pakistani involvement exists. Youtube is full of videos unmasking Indian propaganda.

So lets focus on the 'military' aspect of Pakistani naval acquisitions as originally envisaged by user 'yess'.
 

BilalK

New Member
IIRC the value of the U214 deal is $1.9bn U.S. for 3 submarines, all of which to be built in Pakistan. These would be equipped with the recently bought DM2A4 heavyweight ASW torpedoes, Harpoon Block-II AShM and possibly IDAS anti-air missiles.

There are reports of PN considering MEKO frigates.
 

falconlover81

New Member
congratulations

Guys this is a great decision on the part of pak navy to go for the U-214 because guys it dosen't get better than these babies.now on to more serious business pakistan desperately needs these submarines to safeguard its naval boundaries its trade routes now that gawadar is becoming operational we'll need more ships like the MEKO and MILGEM like bilal pointed out so expensive or not we'll have to procure these items because of the three services the navy has been ignored for a long time but guys if we dont act now i presume it'll be very late
 

falconlover81

New Member
IIRC the value of the U214 deal is $1.9bn U.S. for 3 submarines, all of which to be built in Pakistan. These would be equipped with the recently bought DM2A4 heavyweight ASW torpedoes, Harpoon Block-II AShM and possibly IDAS anti-air missiles.

There are reports of PN considering MEKO frigates.
all of the items u've mentioned may become a reality bilal except for the IDAS missile because i think the missile is still in developmental stages and has not been inducted by the germans themselves so that product might take some time before it becomes a part of the pakistan navy arsenal
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
IDAS won't even be considered for deployment by the German Navy before 2012/13. Or rather, around that is when the next stage trials are.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think there is any hurry to induct IDAS by PN. They probably want a MoU signed to secure the deal for future.
 

BilalK

New Member
I was just pointing out the possibility of PN Type-214s being equipped with IDAS, the missile was marketed by Diehl BGT at IDEAS 2008. The PN would receive its first submarine 64 months after signing the contract, and the other two would be completed 12 months later. The likely that the first PN U-214 would be inducted by 2015, and there is a high chance that IDAS would have already entered German service.

Regarding MILGEM and MEKO. The PN has reportedly selected the MILGEM for its corvette requirements will acquire 4 ships over a 10-year program; 3 of the ships will be built in Pakistan. It is likely that PN is considering a MEKO-design for its frigate requirements, don't know what model (A or D). I am also uncertain of what weapon-systems (AShM, ASW, etc) that would be used on future frigates.
 

IceCold

New Member
IDAS was on display during the ideas 2008 and it is very much likely that the deal is on the table along with the sub deal. These missiles if acquired will greatly enhance the capabilities of the U-214.
 

Firn

Active Member
The U-214 is certainly a fine boat and fits Pakistan's naval strategy. A wide array of weapons can use it as a platform, and I quite sure that Pakistan will try to enable it to fire the Babur cruise missle. The UGM Harpoon could become available for them, and the german supercavitation torpedo as well as IDAS are not too far-fetched options for the future.
 
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