P-3C seen in new light

[gf0012-aust]

The role of P-3C Orion patrol planes in the detection earlier this week of an unidentified submarine in Japanese waters has drawn attention to their sub-detection capabilities.

Military experts said this might prompt the government to reconsider its plan to reduce the number of P-3Cs in its inventory in the upcoming revision of the nation's defense policy outline.

With its current 80 P-3Cs, along with destroyers and SH-60 patrol helicopters, the Maritime Self-Defense Force has top-class capability to detect submarines.

The government is considering reducing the number of P-3Cs to 72 under the new National Defense Program Outline to be adopted next month. Japan had about 100 during the Cold War era, mainly to guard against Soviet submarines.

After the Cabinet decided in December to introduce a costly missile defense system, the Ground, Maritime and Air Self-Defense Forces were instructed to come up with plans to free up money by reducing frontline equipment, including destroyers, tanks and fighters.

The P-3Cs are loaded with advance computer systems, sonobuoys and radar. They patrol waters off Hokkaido, the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea at least once a day from bases in Aomori, Kanagawa, Kagoshima and Okinawa prefectures.

Each P-3C patrol lasts about 10 hours and covers a flight distance of over 3,000 km. Each plane carries 11 crew members, two of whom analyze the data picked up by the sonobuoys.

The MSDF searches for submarines by various methods, including dropping sonobuoys into the sea to catch sounds and compare them with the "sound prints" of submarines. Experts say different types of subs can be distinguished because they make distinct noises.

It can also utilize radar or sonar to locate and track submarines.

Each P-3C carries about 84 sonobuoys and is also equipped with detectors for magnetism and infrared rays.

The Japan Times: Nov. 13, 2004

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20041113a5.htm

--0--

These types of responses have become more and more frequesnt in Japan - I really think that China has pushed Japan into a stage where she is going to be far more prepared to be robust in future.

If any of their analysts have missed the rapidly changing tone and attitude in the Japanese media and coming out of the JSDF, then they really aren't doing their jobs.

 

[Aussie Digger]

It might be "new" to the media, but this is "bread and butter" stuff for P-3C crews...

 

[gf0012-aust]

It might be "new" to the media, but this is "bread and butter" stuff for P-3C crews...

: Another example of jongoistic media.

Pity India and Pakistan don't compete in the Fincastle, it would open it up for some more competition.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Just another example of the effectiveness of P-3C. Btw, I seen in Chinese forum, the sub was Han class.

Gary, does U.S have plans to replace the P-3 fleet? They been around quite a while now.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The replacement is going to be the Boeing MMA. At this stageit looks like it will be run under a smaller version of the JSF programme.

/excerpt on:

Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft
The Boeing 737 Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) combines superior performance and reliability with an advanced mission system that ensures maximum interoperability in the future battle space. A derivative of the Next-Generation 737-800, the 737 MMA is being developed for the U.S. Navy by a Boeing-led industry team that consists of CFM International, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and Smiths Aerospace.

MMA is a long-range anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance aircraft capable of broad-area, maritime and littoral operations. The Navy plans to purchase 108 MMAs to replace its fleet of P-3 aircraft. The first aircraft will be delivered for flight test in 2009 and initial operational capability is slated for 2013.

Boeing was awarded a $3.89 billion contract for system development and demonstration (SDD) phase of the MMA program on June 14, 2004. SDD activities include developing and integration of all the necessary software and onboard mission systems, modifications to the airframe and developing training systems. The MMA is expected to significantly transform how the Navy’s maritime patrol and reconnaissance force will train, operate and deploy.

The U.S. Navy awarded Boeing a contract for phase I of Component Advanced Development (CAD) of the MMA in September 2002 and a contract for phase II in February 2003.

Boeing and its industry partners provide unrivaled expertise in both large-scale systems integration and network centric operations, plus unquestioned leadership in developing and customizing military and commercial products for maritime forces.

Boeing will build the 737 MMA at its production facility in Renton, Wa. The 737 fuselage will be built in Wichita, Ka. then sent to Renton where all MMA-unique 737 MMA aircraft structural features will be incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly. The aircraft will have quality and performance acceptance flight testing conducted from Renton Field and final installations and checkout of the mission system and special flight test instrumentation will be conducted at Boeing Field. The aircraft will then ferry to Naval Air Station Patuxent River, MD for flight test.

CFM International, a 50/50 joint company of Snecma Moteurs and General Electric Company, provides the CFM56-7 engines that will power the Boeing 737 MMA. This is the same engine that powers the Boeing 737 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft, as well as the Navy’s C-40 transport. The two engines will each provide 27,300 pounds of takeoff thrust. The CFM56-7 is one of the world’s most reliable engines. This fleet of engines has logged more than 30 million flight hours while maintaining an industry-leading .002 percent in-flight shut down rate per 1,000 hours of flight.

Northrop Grumman’s Baltimore-based Electronic Systems sector will provide the electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensor, the directional infrared countermeasures system, and the electronic support measures system. Northrop Grumman’s Mission Systems sector, based in Reston, Va., will develop data links for MMA. The company’s Integrated Systems sector, based in El Segundo, Calif., will support the mission planning effort.

Raytheon will provide an upgraded APS-137 Maritime Surveillance Radar and Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) solutions. Raytheon is also offering its revolutionary GPS Anti-Jam, Integrated Friend or Foe, and Towed Decoy Self-Protection suites, and the aircraft’s Broadcast Info System (BIS) and secure UHF Satcom capability.

Smiths Aerospace will supply both the Flight Management and Stores Management systems on the 737 MMA. The Flight Management System provides a truly integrated open architecture that is CNS/ATM compatible along with an inherent growth path for upgrades. The Stores Management System provides a comprehensive system for the electronic control of integrated weapons management.

A full-rate production decision by the Navy for MMA is expected in 2013. Extensive international interest is anticipated from countries currently operating P-3s and other maritime patrol aircraft.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/mma/mmaback.html

 

[umair]

So gary tell me about Fincastle(it obviously is an ASW exercise).
Plus do you think that with our mnna status we could acquire the MMA when it become available for export.Strange the USN is now going for a jet based ASW platform what were they doing when the Brits were going for the Nimrod.

 

[gf0012-aust]

So gary tell me about Fincastle(it obviously is an ASW exercise).
Plus do you think that with our mnna status we could acquire the MMA when it become available for export.Strange the USN is now going for a jet based ASW platform what were they doing when the Brits were going for the Nimrod.

The Fincastle Trophy is an annual ASW exercise held between the UK, Canada, Aust and NZ. Australia has won it 14 times in the 34 years that it has been run.

http://members.aol.com/bacardi053/fincastle98/history.htm

Australia has won the last 3 in a row IIRC.

The main reason why the UK went for the Nimrod is because they wanted an indigenous solution, but they also didn't have a suitable 4 engined prop. The prev ASW platform being the Avro Shackleton - which traces it's heritage back to the Lancaster bomber of WW2. So the UK went for a jet for altruistic reasons more than any technical proficiency issues. Aust ASW crews have actually scored more frequently in a prop driven aircraft than the UK has with a jet. - But I wouldn't say that the results were a slight against jets over props etc....

I don't see why you couldn't get the MMA now that you have entry status. Boeing obviously see that there is a huge market. Current Orion/Aurora users alone is greater than 270 (IIRC).

However, I would think that Lockheed will still be pitching their C130J derivative to existing prop Orion owners who may not want to migrate to jets yet.

 

[highsea]

It's interesting to see a 737 with wing pylons. It does look a little funny. :

Gary, I was thinking about the C-130 also. I don't know much about ASW platforms, but it seems to be that slow flight would be advantageous at times (like tracking). I wonder what modifications Boeing will make to the wing other than the addition of hardpoints. I would think larger LED's, maybe bigger control surfaces and more wing area would be helpful. You know that thing is going to handle like a station wagon at slow speeds.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Gary, I was thinking about the C-130 also. I don't know much about ASW platforms, but it seems to be that slow flight would be advantageous at times (like tracking). I wonder what modifications Boeing will make to the wing other than the addition of hardpoints. I would think larger LED's, maybe bigger control surfaces and more wing area would be helpful. You know that thing is going to handle like a station wagon at slow speeds.

I imagine that we would push for a larger wing area. We have done this for the Wedgetail AWAC's. IIRC Turkeys purchase of a similar platform is with conventional wings. The Aussie AWAC's have been fitted with larger wings from other in series models to increase loiter, lift and hence range.

I stronly suspect that an Aussie MMA would also be kitted out the same.

Personally I think the C130J AWACs has merit. It's a wide body, proven platform and certainly has the tonnage lift. I was under the impression that one had been kitted out with an Ericcson Side Scan mounted "upstairs" a few years ago.

 

[Aussie Digger]

We won the most recent Fincastle gf, but the RAF won the time before that. It is split in to 2 parts with awards going to the best aircraft crews and awards to the best maintenance crews. I think the Kiwi's won the ground crew component of the exercise last time.

Out of interest the Australian Defence Minister has openly stated that Australia would be looking towards 12 new MMA aircraft plus an equivalent number of Global Hawk UAV's to replace our current 21 P-3C Orion aircraft. With the MMA used in the Surveillance/interdiction role and the Global Hawks used in the pure surveillance role.

With 1 Global Hawk able to surveil the same amount of territory as 3 P-3C's over a 24 hour period this should provide a huge boost in Australia's martime patrol capability. It might have a strange effect on Fincastle though...

 

[gf0012-aust]

It is split in to 2 parts with awards going to the best aircraft crews and awards to the best maintenance crews. I think the Kiwi's won the ground crew component of the exercise last time.

I know it's been split into two, but when you look at the results over a historical period they seem to only include the "prosecution" results. I've yet to see a historical tally re the ground crews. (The ground crew element is relatively new)

Fincastle will be interesting from a UAV perspective - especially when it hits the autonomous stage and they start to field UAV's with Mk 54's or 90's.

It was interesting to note that a number of NAVSEA people at the UDT Conf were openly talking about autonomous prosecution, ie heavy lift Mariners etc kitted out with a Mk 54

I know that there is resistance to making the Global Hawk a carrier as it would change the perception issue that it is benign and just restricted to BAMS. Loading it up would remove some of the "protection" of just being a surveillance asset rather than a weapons delivery package.

 

[iceman_f15]

New Delhi: US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld will be visiting India next week. For a couple of years now, Israeli and Indian lobbies have been working the Washington circuit to get US clearance for the sale of the Green Pine radar system and the Phalcon early warning aircraft from Israel.
The US offer to sell P-3C Orion naval reconnaissance aircraft is also an upgraded one. US officials say the version they have for India is “P-3C plus’’ equipped with the latest avionics and equipment systems. They describe it as a “maritime patrol aircraft with offensive capability’’, streets ahead of what Pakistan is cleared for.
The US has also offered Perry class frigates and Sea Hawk helicopters, while special operations forces will be looking at chemical and biological protection equipment.
Between the Israeli offer and the US, India may bend Washington-wards because of the long-term political and strategic implications to the purchase. Clearly, India’s earlier apprehensions about the US being a “reliable defence supplier’’ has been addressed. India’s expectations from Bush-II have two crucial components: deepening of business relations and giving India a new place in the “international security architecture’’. India is willing to play the reciprocity game and the first signal will be Air India’s decision on the purchase of 50 new aircraft, a decision that is being watched equally intently in the Boeing headquarters in Seattle as in Foggybottom.
But the US offer to sell Patriots to India comes with a much bigger strategic statement. Henceforth, comparing Indian military acquisition with Pakistan’s will be redundant: if the Patriot deal goes through, it will add several strategic miles to India’s defence arsenal, making it qualitatively different from either China or Pakistan. If things go according to plan, US and Indian strategists are looking at another version of the US-Japan relationship in Asia.
Part of the new administration’s proactive policy with India has come about with the departure of Colin Powell and the induction of Condoleeza Rice as secretary of state. Powell’s “balancing act’’ was regarded by many Indians as a personal agenda and in the past four years has given its moments of grief to the Indian government.

www.timesofindia.com

Does anyone know what features this P3C plus have ??

 

[gf0012-aust]

The main changes will be comms interlinks so that they can be integrated into the rest of Indias approp defence structure.

so it will probably be a P3C + indian interlinks.