No Russian aircraft engines for Pak?

[jupitor]

http://www.ptinews.com/pti\ptisit...6C?OpenDocument

Nov 30, 2004 05:36:00 PM
Moscow, Nov 30 (PTI) Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov has denied reports about the sale of its aircraft engines to Pakistan that can be fitted to Chinese fighter jets.
Reports had earlier said that Russia is to supply RD-93 jet engines, used in advanced MiG-29 fighters, for the Chinese FC-1 fighter being jointly developed with Pakistan.
"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," Ivanov told reporters before leaving for New Delhi today to finalise the defence agenda of the fifth Indo-Russian summit on December 3.

how ,d they deal with this?

 

[adsH]

China has its own Variant developed for the JF-17 if China would be unable to provide an Engine then there are other options like going back to the drawing bords and then getting an American or French version. But china for the moment has an engine ready.

 

[SABRE]

probably french engine from dessault aviation may be fitted to JF-17. But as adsH says China is going to put its own version in.

 

[Londo Molari]

*yawn*

Sounds like Russia is just trying to please India. Its Russia's choice really... give us the RD-93 and get some money, or refuse, and get nothing as we use China's reverse engineered RD-93s. I have a feeling they'll announce a change in plans (again) before serial production begins.

 

[jupitor]

hmmmmmmm
so some more delay in serial production........

 

[rajupaki]

I knew that russia will do something like that at the peak of the project, thats why i was not in favour of using Russian engine or any other russian tech in JF17.

--0--0--0--

hmmmmmmm
so some more delay in serial production........

No sir i dont think so! pakistanis are not so dumb that they were not expecting this news. They probibly did something to overcome it. Relaxxx

Admin: Concurrent posts merged.

 

[adsH]

i don't get it, the engine isn't a weapon they can sell it to Pak, But they rather not because India would prefer they did not. China has a TVC engine i'm not sure if you could integrate a TVC on the JF-17 but it might be worth a look.

 

[Londo Molari]

There will be no delay.

 

[highsea]

A while back one of the Chinese members here posted a thread about the WS-10A, which was said to be a reverse engineered AL-31F. IIRC, the "A" verison supposedly had a TVC nozzle, and the standard WS-10 didn't.

The WS-10 (aka Kunlun?) was to go in the J-10 and J-11. The AL-31F has about 50% more thrust than the RD-93, 12,500kg vs. 8,000kg.

China had licensed the RD-93 for local production for the JF-17, and I read somewhere that they had (or planned to) purchased 100 engines for the program. So the question is, has China also reverse engineered the RD-93?

Because no way you're going to stuff a WS-10 into the JF-17's airframe, and god forbid you get stuck with rebuilt RD-33's or something like that. Those things were awful from a maintenance standpoint, and they smoked like a locomotive.

You have to question where Russia is coming from, they have known from the start that Pakistan and China were partners in the JF-17. Why would they raise a fuss over the engines at this late date?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Because no way you're going to stuff a WS-10 into the JF-17's airframe, and god forbid you get stuck with rebuilt RD-33's or something like that. Those things were awful from a maintenance standpoint, and they smoked like a locomotive.

I had to interview an Russian aircraft egnineer a few years ago when he sought residency status in Australia. One of the interesting comments he made was that the Mig 29 smoked like a chimney and was a pig to work on.

He said at the time that one of the VVS (??) pilots had said that there wouldn't be a fair fight between an F4 or a Mig29 in WVR as both would be able to see the other coming.

He got a job with BAeA within 2 weeks and ended up going to the US for them on a contract. He was the happiest AME in Australia, one week he had nothing but the clothes he was wearing, the next he wes on $65k per year and getting free overseas travel.

/hijack off

 

[Pathfinder-X]

A while back one of the Chinese members here posted a thread about the WS-10A, which was said to be a reverse engineered AL-31F. IIRC, the "A" verison supposedly had a TVC nozzle, and the standard WS-10 didn't.

The WS-10 (aka Kunlun?) was to go in the J-10 and J-11. The AL-31F has about 50% more thrust than the RD-93, 12,500kg vs. 8,000kg.

China had licensed the RD-93 for local production for the JF-17, and I read somewhere that they had (or planned to) purchased 100 engines for the program. So the question is, has China also reverse engineered the RD-93?

Because no way you're going to stuff a WS-10 into the JF-17's airframe, and god forbid you get stuck with rebuilt RD-33's or something like that. Those things were awful from a maintenance standpoint, and they smoked like a locomotive.

You have to question where Russia is coming from, they have known from the start that Pakistan and China were partners in the JF-17. Why would they raise a fuss over the engines at this late date?

WS-10 is not Kunlun if memory serves me right. I forgot the designation of it.

The TVC nozzle WS-10A is nowhere near the point of being ready to be installed on J-10. It is still undergoing testing in China last I've read from Kanwa. Of course Kanwa is not always reliable but they do have some tight info on chinese military.

The RD-33 engine is available for PLAAF JF-17 but not for Pakistan. It might set back the introduction of JF-17 for PAF for a short time but won't terminate it since the resources have already been put into the program. Now the question is what will the chinese replace RD-33's with?

 

[highsea]

Path, I should have been more specific. The "Kunlun" name might refer to the factory. The J-8C uses the WP-14 "Kunlun" turbojet according to sinodefence. Western and Chinese media reported a new engine in 2002. Newsmax referred to it as the "Kunlun II" in one article, and just the "Kunlun" in another.

Since the J-8C was introduced in 1992, obviously we are talking about 2 different engines. The 2002 articles are referring to the WS-10, not the WP-14 that's on the J-8C. The Newsmax article specifically referenced the AL-31F; the Chinese article did not mention any other names, but considering the date, it could only be the WS-10. Here's the Chinese article:

http://english1.people.com.cn/200205/31/eng20020531_96870.shtml

and the Newsmax one:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/17/163116.shtml

That's why I prefer numbers over names, too much confusion. :

I believe the JF-17 is supposed to use the RD-93, not the RD-33. The 93 is the updated version that's going on the newer Mig-29's and refits. That's why I said Pakistan should avoid the 33, it was a POS. (IMHO) India had tons of problems with the 33, something like 74% premature failure, 200 hours MTBO, hard to get parts, etc. I don't think Pak wants to do battle (literally and figuratively) with that engine...

Here's a good writeup on the MIg-29 and Germany's and India's experiences. I include it here only for the commentary on the RD-33, not to start a discussion about Mig-29's.

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2b.htm

-CM

 

[Kurt Plummer]

Jupitor,

At first glance, it does seem somewhat hypocritical that the Russians would deal with both the Chinese and India (indeed supplying effectively similar if not same /airframe/ standards to 'separate factory, same name' each) as 'blood sworn enemies'. Yet remain unwilling to overlook the Pakistani connection as a 'third tier' indirect export option.

Of course, no matter what anyone says, India and China are largely isolated (from tacair cothreat anyway) so long as the PRC does not become a serious Sea Projector and the Himalayas don't fall down.

The same cannot be said for Pakistan and India with Kashmir -wishing- it could subduct itself from betwixt. And Russia is in some ways closer to the subcontinent than it is the PRC.

IMO, the likeliest justifications are thus not strategic related so much as technical/political.

The Indians are doing quite a bit in terms of active integration of weapons systems and avionics/software engineering from multiple Western sources -as a function of developing- a serious computational design 'home brew' capability as a prime-integrator of indigenous military systems across the spectrum.

To my knowledge, they are still a little weak in the 'heavy metal' areas of precision machining and aerofluids (turbo) compression engineering however where the Russians still have some (small) edge.

Which leaves you with a best-when-bred-together scenario as the no-money reason why PAK-FA is still so fluid and the LCA is more or less dead in the water. While the Russians have more or less commited to 'assist' with the (twin) MCA in trade for the Indians keeping them on the dole with the 21-93 Bison and potential 23/27 upgrades.

Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the RD-93 didn't include Kaveri technology which I'm sure the Indians would NOT like to see coming back the wrong way across the Pakistani border at them.

Add to this the certainty that the AL-31/41 series engines are an evolutionary dead end beyond the Su-30 as long as the best the Russians can afford is a MiG-21 replacement. And it becomes pretty clear (to me) that until they firm up PAK-FA into something which _does not_ look like a JSFski (or wait until the IAF pays for MCA to become a real 'medium' weight alternative); they will want to sit pretty tight on what is effectively their EJ-200 class followon powerplant. To ensure 'design integrity' as a function of cheap lightweight=export market dominance 'if and when' they ever come back into the game.

Admittedly the JF-17 is such a dated-awful half-Jag/half-AMX 1970's level design that direct competition is unlikely but pleasing the Indians may still be more important if only to keep the Chinese 'grateful' as competitive export sourcing.

Lastly, so long as the Paks remain snuggle bunnied with the U.S. over north-40 pursuit of Osama and yet another fill-order of F-16's is being 'discussed' with Musharraf; I doubt if they or the Russians will lose much sleep over propulsion technology base enablers on the Cloud Leopard or whatever it's now called.


KP

 

[ajay_ijn]

Did pakistan officials ask China how will they solve the problem.
It will be not sure that china might fit WS-10 Engine into JF-17.
What if the engine is not going to fit into the JF-17?

I am surprised pakistan did not ask china of how are they going to solve the problem.

 

[adsH]

There was always an understanding that Russia would not allow RD-93. I'm sure Pakistan has a Substitute there is no way of knowing right now if the WS-10 is a fit or not but there are always difference in engines" which basically make the designers Pakistani/Chinese to Go back and modify certain Attributes of the AC, i'm sure their are other ready solutions available.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Admittedly the JF-17 is such a dated-awful half-Jag/half-AMX 1970's level design that direct competition is unlikely but pleasing the Indians may still be more important if only to keep the Chinese 'grateful' as competitive export sourcing. """"

ALL open Platforms are upgradeable the Rafael EuroFighter F-16 Mirage 2000 are older design AC but they still Rage Havoc when they are uptodate and Flown by Able Pilots and operated by World class Operators. You can't compare PLatforms according to there construction but at the end of the day they prove there worth in Battle, by Not acknowledging the Threat of an adversaries Weapon system a person is only ignoring the Storm beyond the Horizon. When God forbid War Happens, it would be too late.

 

[ajay_ijn]

There was always an understanding that Russia would not allow RD-93. I'm sure Pakistan has a Substitute there is no way of knowing right now if the WS-10 is a fit or not but there are always difference in engines" which basically make the designers Pakistani/Chinese to Go back and modify certain Attributes of the AC, i'm sure their are other ready solutions available.

If they go back and modify now then the project would be delayed.

As a stop gap measure first China must fit whatever engine availaible that can be easily into JF-17.Production must be started as usual in 2006.Then Later China must modify JF-17 and fit it with some advanced engine,not necessarily WS-10.

or Pakistan Must approach Ukraine or France for any other kind of enignes.

So the Latest News is that Both Jf-17 and LCA Projects are suffering due to engines.

 

[adsH]

PAF new the engines RD-93 were not going to come for Pakistan they have either other ways of procuring the RD-93engines or they have other solutions, they wouldn't of given out details of its induction if they would of thought there were going to be delays.

 

[cheenamalai]

:cop

Mod:Gf: Duplicate post deleted. Please do not post the same response/message in multiple topic areas.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Hey! Whats up :!:
Man can anyone tell my why the hell is taking so long for Pakistani government to buy those sexy aircrafts! mann i can't wait to see Pakistani Government buying those aircrafts.. :
Probably this is because of the budget isn't :?:
Mann.. yaa don't know what is india planning to do...They got many tight weapons, aircrafts, etc... :mad
But don't worry Pakistan got Mr. Khan you knaww i mean One SHOT WMD :arrow: India :arrow: :help
Allright guyz
Keep the thread interesting!!
Allah hafiz ak

Having a hard time understand what you're saying, did you have a few beers?

 

[adsH]

Yeah Pathfinder this guy is hilarious, most of it was pep-talk for people here and don't ask me what the pep talk was for. he's definately high on adrenalin.

Cheen.. read all the posts in JF-17 related thread, yeup all 90+ pages of information trust me it would be educational