New Zealands $NZ650 million LAVllls problematic

[EnigmaNZ]

Another early sign of trouble are problems being encountered by similar vehicles manufactured for the New Zealand army. Dubbed the LAV III, six of 15 brand-new vehicles delivered to the country's armed forces have been fraught with mechanical problems.

According to a Jan. 21 report in the New Zealand Herald, the problems include:

The breakdown of a turbo unit;
A broken heater;
A faulty auxiliary power unit;
A broken axle;
An oil leak;
<LI>Transfer gear-case unserviceable.

New Zealand Defense Minister Mark Burton has defended the vehicles' reliability, saying the glitches were minor and even expected in a new vehicle.

But other officials, including lawmakers, say question its reliability, especially after learning of the defects.

New Zealand is buying 105 LAV IIIs, which are manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Canada, to replace the army's fleet of aging M-113s. The first batch of 15 arrived in-country in November, but a month later, the Herald said, only six of the more than $6 million-per-copy vehicles were operational.

The paper said the problem vehicles had travelled between 172 and 1,456 miles.

"I would not accept it on a Toyota Landcruiser," said New Zealand First MP and former Army officer Ron Mark. "We should not accept it on an LAV III. Given their much-vaunted performance in the Canadian theatre, I'm surprised we are having any of these problems. "The public were told these vehicles were tried and tested around the world and we were not buying a prototype," he said.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

That post came from here
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/28/151543.shtml

There is so much controversy surrounding the LAVllls, does anyone here know how the LAV's are faring in their own countries military, for those who operate them.
I was watching a Bobcat recently, a light earth moving vehicle, it has wheels and tires, and over the tires it had heavy duty rubber tracks, I got to thinking that a similar system on the LAV would be useful when traversing some terrains. Basically, lie the tracks behind the rears wheels, lower the tire pressures, drive back over the tracks, pull around the rear 2 wheels, pin in place and reinflate the tires, instant half track. This a pic of what I am referring to
http://www.bobcat.com/products/att/photos.html?attname=tracks&mp=1&photo=1

 

[Aussie Digger]

Australia's LAV's are outstanding and providing great service in Exercises in Australia and on operational deployments as diverse asthose in East Timor and Iraq. Of course, ours are the earlier Type 11 LAV's which have been in-service quite a bit longer and most of the "bugs" ironed out. I'm sure in due course the NZLAV's will be sorted out.

Unfortunately a lot of newspapers will jump on any minor problem and blow it all out of proportion if a bit of controversy can be stirred up. A broken heater? Wow!!! What a lemon...

I'm sure the LAV in question was back in service the very same day as the heater broke... All 105 LAV111's have now been delivered IIRC (other than 1 remaining in Canada for testing purposes) and are performing well. If a broken heater or a blown turbo is the worse problem these LAV's ever face, I don't think NZ will be doing too badly...

 

[Supe]

Reporters in NZ must be hard pressed for news if articles like this are published. (in the scheme of things, it sounds damn provincial) I wouldn't be surprised if there were the odd 'glitches' with the venerable M113. No doubt they will be worked out. Quite a few of these vehicles and their variants are in service around the world... if there were issues with reliability, serviceability and functionality, it would have come out long ago. These critics need to get some perspective. Pollies are doing what they naturally do; the grinding of axes.

 

[Pendekar]

broken axle is serious

 

[NZSAS]

Another early sign of trouble are problems being encountered by similar vehicles manufactured for the New Zealand army. Dubbed the LAV III, six of 15 brand-new vehicles delivered to the country's armed forces have been fraught with mechanical problems.

According to a Jan. 21 report in the New Zealand Herald, the problems include:

The breakdown of a turbo unit;
A broken heater;
A faulty auxiliary power unit;
A broken axle;
An oil leak;
<LI>Transfer gear-case unserviceable.

New Zealand Defense Minister Mark Burton has defended the vehicles' reliability, saying the glitches were minor and even expected in a new vehicle.

But other officials, including lawmakers, say question its reliability, especially after learning of the defects.

New Zealand is buying 105 LAV IIIs, which are manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems Canada, to replace the army's fleet of aging M-113s. The first batch of 15 arrived in-country in November, but a month later, the Herald said, only six of the more than $6 million-per-copy vehicles were operational.

The paper said the problem vehicles had travelled between 172 and 1,456 miles.

"I would not accept it on a Toyota Landcruiser," said New Zealand First MP and former Army officer Ron Mark. "We should not accept it on an LAV III. Given their much-vaunted performance in the Canadian theatre, I'm surprised we are having any of these problems. "The public were told these vehicles were tried and tested around the world and we were not buying a prototype," he said.

Hello,
I would just like to know what the problems are witth the LAV's other than technical difficulties.

Thanks

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Here are 2 sites you may find informative, pros and cons of the LAV, a google search will provide more.

"The New Zealand Light Armoured Vehicle (NZLAV) is a key component in the modernisation of the NZDF’s capabilities. It has been subject to ill-informed comment despite it enhancing the operational effectiveness of New Zealand’s Army across the full spectrum of operations from peacekeeping (such as in East Timor) to combat operations (such as in Afghanistan)."

http://www.rsa.org.nz/review/art2004may/article_3.htm

This is a long site dicated to the problems with the overall design of the LAV as used in US srevice.

http://www.combatreform.com/lavdanger.htm


Something to smile over.

"The NZ army’s new 15-ton eight-wheel-drive armored LAV (Light Armored Vehicle) was recently clocked at 109 km/h on a public motorway, one km/h short of its 110 km/h top speed and 19 km/h over the road’s limit for so-called heavy vehicles. The driver was issued a $120 ticket, which will reportedly not be picked up by the Defense Department. The LAV is capable of handling the most brutal off-road situations while still remaining relatively car-like on the road. For those of you puzzling over the metric measurement, 109 km/h translates to a blistering 68 mph"

 

[gf0012-aust]

"The NZ army’s new 15-ton eight-wheel-drive armored LAV (Light Armored Vehicle) was recently clocked at 109 km/h on a public motorway, one km/h short of its 110 km/h top speed and 19 km/h over the road’s limit for so-called heavy vehicles. The driver was issued a $120 ticket, which will reportedly not be picked up by the Defense Department. The LAV is capable of handling the most brutal off-road situations while still remaining relatively car-like on the road. For those of you puzzling over the metric measurement, 109 km/h translates to a blistering 68 mph"

Thats a fair bit of kinetic energy if you're driving a Honda Civic and manage to get hit up the freckle by a rampaging LAV.

 

[kiwitrooper]

I am trained as a gunner,driver and crew commander on NZLAV. I was part of the first NZLAV platoon and deployed to Australia last year with NZLAV.

From my experiance operating NZLAV, I have found them to be a very capable vehicle that has been ridiculed far too much, by people whose only knowledge of armoured fighting vehicles is what they have found on the net,read in a book or from some other persons ill informed opinion.

The turbo problem is a CAT (engine manufacturer) problem, as these particular models are prone to it.
The broken axle is the result of a rather large jump, performed at the vehicle's first demonstration in NZ. however the vehicle was still mobile.
Oil leaks,faulty heater are just trivial stuff that happens to everything mechanical, and from experiance gets fixed asap.

What I am suprised has not been mantioned is the fact that NZLAVs have a nasty habit of stalling on steep hill climbs! Which cannot be explained by any one from the manufacturer.

 

[Stryker001]

I am trained as a gunner,driver and crew commander on NZLAV. I was part of the first NZLAV platoon and deployed to Australia last year with NZLAV.

From my experiance operating NZLAV, I have found them to be a very capable vehicle that has been ridiculed far too much, by people whose only knowledge of armoured fighting vehicles is what they have found on the net,read in a book or from some other persons ill informed opinion.

Good to hear from someone who is directly affected by the issue and has direct knowledge of the capabilities of the NZLAV. I guess the question I would like to ask you, are you confident to be deployed to war/peacekeeping with your current equipment as is. Do you believe the minor problems will be sorted in the future? With the issue of stalling is it overly common, and what is the degree of the incline when this occurs.
Cheers

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Welcome onboard kiwitrooper. What you say is correct, unless someone with direct experience joins in the debate, the media is all we have to go on.
Stalling on steep inclines, are you sure they haven't slipped in a carbureted petrol engine hehe. Weird behavior for a diesel with a pressurised fuel system, engine overheating causing a vapourlock, or is that only a problem with petrol engines. Is it just the 3's, or do aussies alav's do it as well.
One thing that puzzles me, the wheel/tire size on the kiwi LAV3's seem narrower than on the stryker. How do they fare on muddy terrain, do you use chains on the wheels. I saw a rubber track fitted to a bobcat a little while ago over its tires which I thought would be great for the LAV's rear 4 wheels, until it clicked I had forgotten the bobcat has no suspension that I am aware of, suspension movement on the LAV would probably rule such an idea out.

 

[kiwitrooper]

Yes I would feel confident deploying on operations in NZLAV...... the only thing that would concern me is the ability of the army to support NZLAV on operations. I.E not enough,spares,logistic vehicles etc etc.
When I was on predators gallop last year we had vehicles that were unservicable in the feild due to not carrying enough spares i.e tyres. I had two flats on my vehicle and another had two as well, two bent tie rods which resulted in a whole section (four vehicles out of action) with no result of enemy action.Also the ech could not reach us as a unimog could not get to where we were,
Funny thing was as we were retiring back to the rear we passed 5/7 RAR heading for the front in old m113s!

 

[kiwitrooper]

No the aussie lavs do not have the same problem as far as I am aware.As they have different engine to NZLAV (ASLAV has the same engine as m113 but with turbo 6v53t).I suspect it would be a computer fault.
NZLAV has the same size tyre as a stryker, they are not so good in muddy conditions. The vehicle is fitted with a central tyre inflation system that allows you to drop your tyre pressures from the drivers station. How ever many crews are reluctant to do this in muddy conditions as it result in alot of mud entering the bead of the rim causing flats.
I feel that the vehicle would benefit greatly from difflocks.

 

[Stryker001]

I assume the spanner's service the them every 10,000km? If deployed on peacekeeping missions would you like to have the option to fit BAR armour if required to the lav's similar to what OZ can do if the security situation warrants increased protection.

May be when Afghanistan OP finishes in 06, a similar OP, some what larger to the NZPRT Bamian Province OP but with the use of LAV's, can be applied in Iraq with the ADF and NZDF working together in Al Muthanna. This would enable the Poms to redeploy troops to other regions of the world.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What I am suprised has not been mantioned is the fact that NZLAVs have a nasty habit of stalling on steep hill climbs! Which cannot be explained by any one from the manufacturer.

That could be due to any number of reasons:

• turbo related
• fuel pump pressure
• torque (unlikely)
• gearing mismatch

what AAO does it typically happen at? one would think that this would be sorted by now.

 

[nz enthusiast]

I don't actually have any problem with the LAV3, but i would have prefred British warriors or bradleys (i prefer track vehicles). I view almost any money spent by the NZ government on defence as a blessing.
Who else actually operates the LAV "3"? I'm just wondering if New Zealand is the only country which uses the lav as its primary and only combat vehicle.

the money that was used to purchase the LAVs was the money that was previously allocated to the F-16s. Do you guys think it was smart or stupid for the labour government to swap 28 F-16s for 105 lavs?

 

[Aussie Digger]

The NZ Army's armoured forces were in more urgent need of an upgrade than the RNZAF air combat force IMHO, due to their greater operational commitments. I'm not sure whether the LAVIII was the best choice out of the available armoured vehicle fleets around the world, however it was the one that was made.

A better option might have been an M113 upgrade along the lines of the Australian M113AS3/4 series but with a firepower boost over that chosen by Australia. Given that Australia's program is costing $300 Million for 350 vehicles and NZ's cost $680 million (or thereabouts) for 105 LAVIII's it would at least have made financial sense... Even with a different turret incorporating the same 25mm cannon as the LAVIII's operate, NZ probably could have acquired 200 upgraded M113's and STILL saved $200 million or more over the LAV acquisition. Money that could have been well employed elsewhere in the NZDF...

 

[EnigmaNZ]

With regard to the flats, you'd think that with all of the technical inovations coming on stream that someone could come up with a airless heavy duty wheel/tire combo.
Really, the LAV has no diff locks, amazing, just assumed something like that would have.
Now if we can score some bolt on TOW kits or the 25mm autocannon and Javelin top-attack, fire & forget ATGM missile turrets, 105mm low recoil turrets as fitted to the LAV 300, and the Blazer Air Defense System as in the LAV-AD
Hmm, there was talk about whether we should have a 3rd battlion a little while ago, with the peacekeeping load falling on our current force structure. Maybe if this was equipped with 50 tracked vehicles, modified M113's, stretched, low maintenance band tracks, LAV diesel, systems and turrets for parts commonality, applique or slat armor etc we'd have a unit that can be deployed in areas where tracks are clearly advantageous, at a relatively low cost, and is deployable via C130.

 

[kiwitrooper]

Honestly the biggest problem the NZDF is facing at the moment with LAVs, would be that they are struggling to hold onto trained crews, especially ones with previous experiance in an armoured background. As alot of crewman have left.
Bar armour would be alright I think, from what I've seen any way.
I left the army in jan 05 and now reside in Australia. I am in the process of joining the Australian army as an ASLAV crewman.
I cannot see NZ deploying LAV to Iraq, Afghanistan maybe if they have enough competant crews.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

Were you in the NZarmy?