New built Leopard - Tanks for Saudi Arabia

[Onkel]

Hi everybody, Germany´s Magazine DER SPIEGEL wrote about a german - arabian deal for 200 new built Leopard 2 A 7+: Waffen-Deal: Deutschland will Saudi-Arabien Kampfpanzer liefern - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

I couldn´t find out more about this deal. Can anybody help?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Hi everybody, Germany´s Magazine DER SPIEGEL wrote about a german - arabian deal for 200 new built Leopard 2 A 7+: Waffen-Deal: Deutschland will Saudi-Arabien Kampfpanzer liefern - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

I couldn´t find out more about this deal. Can anybody help?

They have updated the article pointing out it is a possible sale not a confirmed order. Aparantly if the German Govt. gives approval and the Saudis pay up they will be built in Spain with German equipment.

 

[kato]

Aparantly if the German Govt. gives approval and the Saudis pay up they will be built in Spain with German equipment.

The tanks were originally going to come from Spain; now it seems that KMW has snagged the deal away from the license holder in Spain (read: GDLSE) by careful manipulation of export politics. Simple as that.

The government (or rather: the Federal Security Council) has approved the export in principle, but the deal between Saudi Arabia and KMW isn't signed yet.

 

[vivtho]

Hi everybody, Germany´s Magazine DER SPIEGEL wrote about a german - arabian deal for 200 new built Leopard 2 A 7+:

Don't they already have M1s and T-80/90s?

 

[Waylander]

I expect them to be replacements for their M60s and AMX-30s.
Fits well into their policy of diversifying their arms suppliers.

And I would love to see a Leopard with the latest stuff being in service. Not that I think that they can employ and maintain them properly in case of a serious conflict...

 

[polyvios]

This is a big shift in German policy. Until now Germany was not selling any military equipment to any nation that could be a potential threat to Israel's security. All that is changed now, as it appears. Germany could no longer ignore a big buyer such as Saudi Arabia which looks eager to move away from the US monopoly of its inventory.

 

[surpreme]

This is a big shift in German policy. Until now Germany was not selling any military equipment to any nation that could be a potential threat to Israel's security. All that is changed now, as it appears. Germany could no longer ignore a big buyer such as Saudi Arabia which looks eager to move away from the US monopoly of its inventory.

Must see what detail are in the deal. If this tank can be use the right way and have the spare parts available in a armed conflict it will be hard to counter by Iran or other nations.

 

[Feanor]

Don't they already have M1s and T-80/90s?

No T-90s, (or T-80s). They tested the T-90s and there was a possible order for ~200 but it never came through.

 

[kato]

This is a big shift in German policy. Until now Germany was not selling any military equipment to any nation that could be a potential threat to Israel's security. All that is changed now, as it appears.

Nothing's changed. Israel just doesn't consider a well-armed Saudi Arabia a threat anymore since both countries are concentrating on Iran.

If this tank can be use the right way and have the spare parts available in a armed conflict it will be hard to counter by Iran or other nations.

... we're talking about Saudi Arabia. The country that spreads out its weapon buys because it wagers that in case of war multiple suppliers will drop their support.

 

[Mosamania]

The MBT question has been going on in Saudi Arabia for a long time since the M1 just didn't satisfy their needs and had both high Gas guzzling and expensive maintenance.

So the Leopard2 became the best option and 200 tanks is just the original order and it might include license build for all spare parts ( a trend in all saudi buys recently) so they wont be too dependent on foreign supply/contractors.

All in All it is a good machine and I really wish 500-800 come into the service.

 

[polyvios]

Nothing's changed. Israel just doesn't consider a well-armed Saudi Arabia a threat anymore since both countries are concentrating on Iran.

Maybe you are right. But chancellor Merkel is receiving great critisism in the German parliament for violating foreign military exports rules and non-formal agreements.

Anyway the contract for the first batch of 44 tanks is alreary signed.

 

[Publicaffairs]

Nothing's changed. Israel just doesn't consider a well-armed Saudi Arabia a threat anymore since both countries are concentrating on Iran. (...)

...or it´s just another game. Saudi Arabia ist getting the tanks and Israel adequate anti-tank equipment. Arms dealer always have two customers. ;-)

 

[kato]

But chancellor Merkel is receiving great critisism in the German parliament for violating foreign military exports rules and non-formal agreements.

Only the usual amount she'd get for any such deal - nothing special about Saudi Arabia. Merkel's problem is that someone didn't keep silent about it; pretty much every time weapon deals are linked to the press we see criticism comparable to this now.

Hell, when we think of it some weapons deal exposures ran a lot higher regarding resulting tensions. Think Spiegel affair back in '62, or the whole Schreiber affair throughout the 90s.

Saudi Arabia ist getting the tanks and Israel adequate anti-tank equipment.

Israel exports anti-tank equipment. To Germany, among others.

 

[jaffo4011]

Only the usual amount she'd get for any such deal - nothing special about Saudi Arabia. Merkel's problem is that someone didn't keep silent about it; pretty much every time weapon deals are linked to the press we see criticism comparable to this now.

Hell, when we think of it some weapons deal exposures ran a lot higher regarding resulting tensions. Think Spiegel affair back in '62, or the whole Schreiber affair throughout the 90s.


Israel exports anti-tank equipment. To Germany, among others.

was the challenger 2 benchmarked against the leopard by the saudi's?.....

 

[Waylander]

The Challenger 2 doesn't enter competitions since years.
There are also no existing active production lines open AFAIK. So I doubt they could compete pricewise even if a customer rates the advantages of the Challi 2 higher than the ones of other competitors which are in production.

 

[MarcH]

Strange things happen. Wouldn't Al-Khalid make more sense ?
The Saudis already operate a modern western MBT. And considering the close cooperation with Pakistan, the Saudis could at least hope to get enough crews to actually operate their tanks.

 

[swerve]

Al Khalid has a different gun, & can't share ammunition. Big drawback. Separate logistical chains is bad enough, but different ammo is a big no-no.

 

[Waylander]

And maybe they just like the general layout of Western MBTs compared to the mix of russian/chinese design philosophy offered by Pakistan.

 

[Mosamania]

The Challenger 2 doesn't enter competitions since years.
There are also no existing active production lines open AFAIK. So I doubt they could compete pricewise even if a customer rates the advantages of the Challi 2 higher than the ones of other competitors which are in production.

After the M1s proved to be expensive at maintenance and was sold downgraded to the Saudis they wanted someone who would provide things full for them with the best available options that serve the Saudi interests the best.

So in the end it was between the T-90 and the Leo2 and the Leo2 came out on top for Saudi requirements.

 

[MarcH]

Al Khalid has a different gun, & can't share ammunition. Big drawback. Separate logistical chains is bad enough, but different ammo is a big no-no.

If diversification is one of the goals of this deal then different ammo isn't a problem. Further more, the Saudis already have different ammo for M1, M60 and AMX tanks.

If they order their Leos with L55 guns, the situation isn't all that different. At least, if they want to get the maximum out of the gun.