Navies of landlocked nations

[Jtimes2]

Because Montenegro is, apparently, now independent of Serbia, I wonder what will become of the ex-Yugoslav navy. Under the terms of Montenegro's referrendum, Serbia inherits all trappings of the former federation; including the UN seat, embassies, and all military assets.

The central gov't had already moved most of the army/air force into Serbia proper, but the navy is an interesting situation. It's Belgrade's property, most of the sailors are ethnic Serb, and in any case Montenegro lacks the funding for any type of military regardless. Yet, obviously, all the coastline and naval bases are now in Montenegro.

I had heard Egypt was looking to buy the Osa missile boats; and possibly the last operational Koni class frigate. This doesn't seem like a wise buy; in 1991 the Germans tried to pawn off the three ex-Volksmarine Koni's and every potential buyer (Algeria, Indonesia, Lithuania) said they lacked a central CIC, had poor D/C facilities, and used a non-standard distillate fuel. I don't know what role the one-off ship would fill in Egypt's fleet.

This would leave the last (marginally-)operable diesel sub, the five Koncar missile boats, the Silba LST, and some small patrol boats. The patrol boats could concievably be added to Serbia's riverine fleet. Any theories on what will happen to the larger ships?

A second option would be for Serbia to lease a base in Montenegro and keep their navy. I'm trying to think of some other landlocked navies:
Ethiopia: After Eritrea's independence, Ethiopia lost it's coastline and it's navy operated out of Yemen and Djibouti for a year or so. They tried to lease Aseb but the Eritreans weren't hearing that. By the end of the 1990s many of the ships (including the ex-USN seaplane tender Ethiopia) had sunk at their moorings in Yemen and the survivors (an Osa and some gunboats) were sold to Eritrea. The Ethiopian sailors are still stuck in Yemen; caught in a diplomatic catch-22. It's a pretty sad story.
Bolivia: They lost their coast to Chile in the 1800s but hope to get it back someday and still keep a formal, organized navy. They even participate in UNITAS; I met a Bolivian officer when I was in the US Navy.
Hungary: They kept a riverine rump of the Hapsburg Empire's navy as late as 1965, when it was absorbed into the army.

Any thoughts/discussion?

 

[Big-E]

Considering Montenegro voted for independence yesterday the ownership of the vessels might come into question. This is very similar to the breakup of the Soviet Union in regards to Ukraine. I think Montenegro will sieze a few of the better vessels for their own use and lease the others to Serbia if she still wants to operate them. I'm sure they will grab P831 as she is the only operational submarine. They will probably beg Serbia to take the Split as she was heavily damaged in 1991 and keep the newer Podgorica Koni FFG. The 2 Kotor class light frigates are relatively new and carry a pretty good armament of SSMs and a decent SAM suite. These two ships are the best and newest in the fleet. They are the only ones really worth operating IMHO, I would keep them, maybe spilt b/w the two countries might be equitable. I think Serbia should give up her missile boats, she really doesn't need them now. The 4 Osa I missile boats should have been scrapped 5-10yrs ago! The five Type 240s are going on thirty and at only 242ts should be scrapped as well. All the auxilaries average out to 50+ yrs old and need to be scrapped. The Kit could be saved for logistics.

So your talking about splitting up the two sets of FFGs b/w the two countries and someone fighting over 1 operational sub. There are 3 patrol craft and 1 light logistics ship still able to run which would go to Montenegro b/c Serbia has no need of patrol craft. The missle boats get scrapped. With this option I don't think Serbia should waste her time or money operating these platforms. They should be transfered to Monetenegro and she can operate the Kotors, Podgorica, some patrol craft and a sub. Everything else will be scrapped b/c no one in their right mind would buy that junk. Montenegro wouldn't want to sell her operational boats.

 

[Jtimes2]

Considering Montenegro voted for independence yesterday the ownership of the vessels might come into question. This is very similar to the breakup of the Soviet Union in regards to Ukraine. I think Montenegro will sieze a few of the better vessels for their own use and lease the others to Serbia if she still wants to operate them. I'm sure they will grab P831 as she is the only operational submarine. They will probably beg Serbia to take the Split as she was heavily damaged in 1991 and keep the newer Podgorica Koni FFG. The 2 Kotor class light frigates are relatively new and carry a pretty good armament of SSMs and a decent SAM suite. These two ships are the best and newest in the fleet. They are the only ones really worth operating IMHO, I would keep them, maybe spilt b/w the two countries might be equitable. I think Serbia should give up her missile boats, she really doesn't need them now. The 4 Osa I missile boats should have been scrapped 5-10yrs ago! The five Type 240s are going on thirty and at only 242ts should be scrapped as well. All the auxilaries average out to 50+ yrs old and need to be scrapped. The Kit could be saved for logistics.

So your talking about splitting up the two sets of FFGs b/w the two countries and someone fighting over 1 operational sub. There are 3 patrol craft and 1 light logistics ship still able to run which would go to Montenegro b/c Serbia has no need of patrol craft. The missle boats get scrapped. With this option I don't think Serbia should waste her time or money operating these platforms. They should be transfered to Monetenegro and she can operate the Kotors, Podgorica, some patrol craft and a sub. Everything else will be scrapped b/c no one in their right mind would buy that junk. Montenegro wouldn't want to sell her operational boats.

Those are good points; however the Serbs specifically wrote into the referrendum the conditions that they would get the military if the Montys voted "yes"; I think they wanted to avoid the mess of 1991 in the ex-USSR where countries like Uzbekistan laid claim to assets like Mig-25's simply because they happened to be hangared on their territory when independence was declared.

Also, Serbia's seen the handwriting on the wall for some time now and have ensured that senior naval officers were Serb nationals.

But the Serbs might do something like Russia did; for example trading corvettes to Lithuania and Azerbaijan in exchange for natural gas rights, berthing at ports, etc. Czechoslovakia did a similar thing when they went splitsville; the Czechs gave Slovakia all their Su-22's in exchange for some transports. Montenegro will eventually need at least a coast guard; so you're probably right that something will be worked out with some small patrol boats.

I agree with your opinion about the Osa's; even if Egypt's getting them for fire-sale pricing I don't see the point. Like you said, they're at the end of their natural lives and Egypt's Osa's were re-engined with European diesels & radars so the Yugo boats would have little value even as parts hulks. The Koni buy would be even more senseless. Unfortunately the Arab navies have a poor habit of buy-now, find-a-use later which greatly hampers their at-sea time (bewildering varieties of old, high-mainenance ships with different spare parts requirements).

I also agree with your opinion that Serbia should not waste money trying to keep a foreign-ported fleet. Unfortunately, if the B92 website is to believed, they are pretty depressed about losing the sea access which they sought between midieval times and 1918 and now have lost again. So stubborness and pride might lead them to try.

 

[contedicavour]

Those are good points; however the Serbs specifically wrote into the referrendum the conditions that they would get the military if the Montys voted "yes"; I think they wanted to avoid the mess of 1991 in the ex-USSR where countries like Uzbekistan laid claim to assets like Mig-25's simply because they happened to be hangared on their territory when independence was declared.

Also, Serbia's seen the handwriting on the wall for some time now and have ensured that senior naval officers were Serb nationals.

But the Serbs might do something like Russia did; for example trading corvettes to Lithuania and Azerbaijan in exchange for natural gas rights, berthing at ports, etc. Czechoslovakia did a similar thing when they went splitsville; the Czechs gave Slovakia all their Su-22's in exchange for some transports. Montenegro will eventually need at least a coast guard; so you're probably right that something will be worked out with some small patrol boats.

I agree with your opinion about the Osa's; even if Egypt's getting them for fire-sale pricing I don't see the point. Like you said, they're at the end of their natural lives and Egypt's Osa's were re-engined with European diesels & radars so the Yugo boats would have little value even as parts hulks. The Koni buy would be even more senseless. Unfortunately the Arab navies have a poor habit of buy-now, find-a-use later which greatly hampers their at-sea time (bewildering varieties of old, high-mainenance ships with different spare parts requirements).

I also agree with your opinion that Serbia should not waste money trying to keep a foreign-ported fleet. Unfortunately, if the B92 website is to believed, they are pretty depressed about losing the sea access which they sought between midieval times and 1918 and now have lost again. So stubborness and pride might lead them to try.

Keeping just one submarine doesn't make much operational sense, and even if there is another Sava-class sub available that can be cannibalized, I doubt the remaining unit would survive much longer anyway, whether the Serbs or the Montenegro are the legal owners.
Vs the surface units, what Montenegro needs is a serious coastal surveillance force against smuggling of drugs, weapons, people . So spending money on keeping the Russian-built or the Croatian-built Konis with their obsolete Styx SSMs seems to me to be a total waste of money. However, the Osa (forget their missile armament, which is obsolete anyway) and the Rade Koncars could be useful to patrol the coastal waters.
Regarding Serbia, IMHO they'd better use money to revamp their Air Force (starting from the 5 surviving MIG-29s which are not operational to date) instead of wasting efforts for some useless and obsolete or obolescent ships...

cheers

 

[Big-E]

However, the Osa (forget their missile armament, which is obsolete anyway)

Styx can still sink ships and Geckos can still destroy aeros... am I a poet or what?

 

[contedicavour]

Styx can still sink ships and Geckos can still destroy aeros... am I a poet or what?

Yep its sounds poetic
Seriously, the Styx are vulnerable to the most basic of EW. Those are the missiles the Egyptians used in 1967
Geckos are a bit better, but the ship can only launch a couple at a time (no VLS, just a retractable launcher) and the range of 10-12 km is lower than the old Sea Sparrow.
No valid CIWS either...

cheers

 

[Jtimes2]

Yep its sounds poetic
Seriously, the Styx are vulnerable to the most basic of EW. Those are the missiles the Egyptians used in 1967
Geckos are a bit better, but the ship can only launch a couple at a time (no VLS, just a retractable launcher) and the range of 10-12 km is lower than the old Sea Sparrow.
No valid CIWS either...

cheers

Additionally, the Koni's engines burn a non-standard distillate fuel; and; they lack any type of centralized CIC. The Bundesmarine kept the FGS Rostock (ex-East German Koni) in service for a year or so; they decided against NATO-izing it for these reasons. Bulgaria is replacing their Koni with an ex-Belgian frigate for the same reason.

As far as the possible Egyptian buy; I can't imagine why they'd want more SS-N-2 firing ships. If Styx didn't work against the Israeli's EW in 1973, I don't think the odds would be very good now. As far as Gecko; the Egyptians already have vessels with Sea Sparrow and Standard; I don't know how much of an asset it would be.

 

[contedicavour]

Additionally, the Koni's engines burn a non-standard distillate fuel; and; they lack any type of centralized CIC. The Bundesmarine kept the FGS Rostock (ex-East German Koni) in service for a year or so; they decided against NATO-izing it for these reasons. Bulgaria is replacing their Koni with an ex-Belgian frigate for the same reason.

As far as the possible Egyptian buy; I can't imagine why they'd want more SS-N-2 firing ships. If Styx didn't work against the Israeli's EW in 1973, I don't think the odds would be very good now. As far as Gecko; the Egyptians already have vessels with Sea Sparrow and Standard; I don't know how much of an asset it would be.

Fully agree, these ships are more of a burden than they're worth.
Unless somebody was so crazy as to spend millions of euros to change Styx with RBS-15 or Harpoon and to change Gecko with RAMs

cheers