Minimum requirements for CAS Turboprops

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
I just finished reading a rather cringeworthy article in an Irish Defence Forces magazine which sang the praises of the PC-9M as a close air support platform (to be fair it is a military in house publication available to the general public so the outlook is always several degrees west of sunny) because of the F-16 type HUD and sighting systems fitted in the Irish fleet.

So without stretching reality too much, what would the minimum requirements be to make a Turboprop trainer effective and suitable for Close Air Support work in an OOTW/COIN environment?

In terms of:

Avionics:
Range:
Survivability:
Payload:

(for the record the Irish PC-9s only carry two weapons pylons on each wing and are equipped only for 12.7mm HMGs and 70mm FFARs, the remaining two pylon slots are used for fuel tanks. This is opposed to the Slovenian model which can carry gravity bombs in addition to rocket and gun systems on its four weapons pylons)
 
Last edited:

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You mean for the Irish Defence Forces?

Context is important, because the nature of the threat drives the requirement an aircraft suitable for one country might be totaly unsuitable for another.

Chris
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Well I wasn't particularly thinking of a client state or type (I certainly wouldn't like to see any more of the defence budget spent on turboprops).

I suppose my question is more whether small (and small defence budgeted) Western states like Ireland, New Zealand and other first world nations that do have fast jets of some sort but for whom it would be prohibitive to deploy those high cost high maintenance assets would be able to provide certain CAS and escort roles with Turboprop trainers as an alternative to relying on friendly forces being in the area to provide Fast Jet cover or Rotary Wing CAS.

Obviously it would not be as good a solution as either from the performance point of view. However I wondered if turboprops could be:

A) Functional and Effective

B) Remain relatively budget friendly

in roles such as escort of convoys or patrols or as close air support providers for troops in contact, or the rather riskier and more ambitious roles of strike and interdiction.

And if so what kind of equipment/training would be required to make them viable in these roles

As a final qualifier, it would clearly be no fun trying this sort of thing in Iraq or against the Taliban but in AOs like that there is NATO fast air and AH rotary available.
In many less high profile spots there isn't.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Two engines would be a must.

Armour for the pilot and systems is also a must.

A PC9 could get shot down by hand guns.

Want to know the minimum require for a CAS aircraft?

Here it is!! The Pucara
Umm... Two engines is not a "must" the A-1 Skyraider only had one engine and was probably the best CAS aircraft of it's time. It had good ordnance carrying ability 8,000 lbs, on 15 hard points and also carried 4 20mm cannon. That and it could loiter for 10 hours. T

The Pucara doesn't match it in armament, though it looks like it could have a comparable loiter time. It only has a fifth the hardpoints as a Skyraider, and can carry less than half bomb load.

If choosing a prop, I'd take a Skyraider over a Pucara. As for using a PC-9... In an emergency or very low intensity conflict that could work. I'd rather go with the PC-21 which is supposed to have more sophisticated CAS capabilities, at least as far as training goes. IIRC the Pilatus is offering the PC-21 as "fast attack jet training, at turboprop price" or words to that effect.

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Umm... Two engines is not a "must" the A-1 Skyraider only had one engine and was probably the best CAS aircraft of it's time. It had good ordnance carrying ability 8,000 lbs, on 15 hard points and also carried 4 20mm cannon. That and it could loiter for 10 hours. T

The Pucara doesn't match it in armament, though it looks like it could have a comparable loiter time. It only has a fifth the hardpoints as a Skyraider, and can carry less than half bomb load.

If choosing a prop, I'd take a Skyraider over a Pucara. As for using a PC-9... In an emergency or very low intensity conflict that could work. I'd rather go with the PC-21 which is supposed to have more sophisticated CAS capabilities, at least as far as training goes. IIRC the Pilatus is offering the PC-21 as "fast attack jet training, at turboprop price" or words to that effect.

-Cheers
Yes, the PC-21 is advertised as having similar performance levels to jet powered training aircraft and the Hawk series in particular, with the benefit of being significantly cheaper to operate, being a Turboprop...

Not sure about it's combat capabilities though. Australia's PC-9's can carry "gunpods" and "smoke grenades" but that's it AFAIK. A pretty slim combat capability if you ask me...
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Does anyone know what the official Slovenian policy is on the use of their armed PC9s?

I know that Executive Outcomes claimed to use PC-7s for CAS in Angola but I suppose that could be defined as desperation.
 

Mercenary

New Member
I bet that Irish Defence Mag' was merely stating their PC-9M's are good enough for combating the IRA terrorists, whom the latter might be able to have a few FN Mag's available for AA.

A PC-9M can be modified to accept 4-pylon hardpoints and is cleared for weapons such as the 20mm GIAT cannon pod (180-rounds), FN Herstal .50cal HMG pods (400-rounds each), 7-round 68mm/70mm/81mm rocket pods and free-fall bombs up to at least 250-Lbs maybe even 500 pounders. Two cannon pods and a pair of Medusa 81mm rocket pods would offer the IDF's PC-9M's excellent CAS capabilites for their respective environment, i.e., IN Ireland. :)

The key questions here are it's lack of built-in cockpit armor which the Super Tucano does have as standard.
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
Unfortunately DIRA (Diet IRA) and IRA LITE remain largely interchangeable at grass roots level (along with IRA Max and Zero Carb IRA) and have handed in or lost to capture a half dozen or so heavy machine guns ranging from 12.7mm to 14.5mm this is in addition to the widespread belief that they have acquired MANPADs at some point in the not too distant past.

Although now that you mention it the IR...Sinn Fein parliamentary infil...party in the Republic did strenuously object to the procurement of the PC-9s largely on the basis that they are "NATO standard" aircraft.

The Free fall bombs might work out ok, but from listening to pilots talk about the weapons fit, it seems that anything with more recoil force than the HMG would cause stress fractures along the wingspurs in short order.

Out of curiousity, how much use is cockpit armour in a small aircraft with little redundancy?
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Out of curiosity, how much use is cockpit armour in a small aircraft with little redundancy?
On small aircraft the cockpit armour is there to protect the pilot, rather than the aircraft systems.

For choice I would go for the PC-21, more modern, more capable and should be cheaper to run.

The PC-21 is manufactured by Pilatus in Switzerland; can you think of a more neutral country.

http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/htm...6&NavL3ID=0&NavL4ID=0&NavL5ID=0&NavL6ID=0&L=2


From the way the sales are going at present the PC-21 appears likely to become the “World Standard” aircraft in this class.

The trainer version is well underway, (with lots of orders) and the armed version is in development.

I have flown a Super Tucano and a PC-9, they are good aircraft, but I think the PC-21 will be better. I sat in the PC-21 this year when it was at the air show; this visibility from the cockpit is superb.

With regards to treats from the ground, speed and agility will offer some protection from AA MG fire, but there is not any practical affordable solution to attacks from MANPADS, flares help a little, but DIRCM systems costs are prohibitive for this type of aircraft (For small aircraft and helicopters, £0.5M per turret, £0.5M for the MWS, £0.5M for the rest of the DASS and with installation etc a minimum of £2M per aircraft. For larger aircraft, with 3 or more turrets and lasers, £10M).

Recent contract awards for training aircrew in the UK may result in the PC-21 being used in the UK, under a PFI.



Chris
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Thanks for the feedback guys it has been very much an educational experience.

Any ideas on the running costs of Armed Helos vs Dedicated AHs vs Armed turboprops?
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the feedback guys it has been very much an educational experience.

Any ideas on the running costs of Armed Helos vs Dedicated AHs vs Armed turboprops?
10:20:1

If you are lucky, operating a helicopter is very expensive (rather than extremely); they take a lot of flying, so training is extensive and expensive.


They also have this nasty habit of crashing more frequently than fixed wing aircraft.

In many cases is cheaper to operate a fast jet rather than a helicopter (except training helicopters such as the Robinson range).




Chris
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I just finished reading a rather cringeworthy article in an Irish Defence Forces magazine which sang the praises of the PC-9M as a close air support platform (to be fair it is a military in house publication available to the general public so the outlook is always several degrees west of sunny) because of the F-16 type HUD and sighting systems fitted in the Irish fleet.

So without stretching reality too much, what would the minimum requirements be to make a Turboprop trainer effective and suitable for Close Air Support work in an OOTW/COIN environment?

In terms of:

Avionics:
Glass Cockpit Of Course, along with a decent bus so that smart weapons carriage could be a given.
Ideally, I would like an HMDS with gimbaled FLIR since I would not want to take a <300 knot, <6G, airframe under 15,000ft in daylight and because a helmet makes fast target designation to the INS a lot simpler.
I would want a suite of SDRs that provided full HOTAS connectivity to any asset I was likely to be operating with, including all ground assets but also fast jet air since 'CAS' seems to be an excuse to bent-pipe act as airborne coordinator these days.
Obviously, connectivity starts at home with a ROVER or like ability with the ground forces to create an FSCL and mark targets based on images YOU send THEM. Again, it is SO much simpler to hit what you _do not_ have to MOB acquire and HUD designate on the way down the chute.
I would /like/ to have a 'second chair' so that we could keep the boat rowing and the duck shooting separate. Especially if I am a night hunter, eyes-out separation of responsibilities is critical. GIB reads the (digital) map and I fly based on what he says. BUT I FLY. I don't 'manage the systems'. Becoming one with the granite cumulus is not Zen.
Failing that, one MUST incorporate a sophisticated autopilot, including the ability to crank in headings and attitudes separate from the typical azimuth+orbit options. Against light flak, it's the ol' 'fly one way while being banked the other' game of Laos all over again except that you have to be able to stir the stick about without decoupling the autopilot. If a decent gun is available (i.e. one accurate and long ranged enough to beat most threat weapons for slant) then a further IFFC couple is always nice, provided, again, you can predesignate targets.

Range:
250nm + 2hrs. Or 150nm + 4hrs. More than that is ridiculous with the likely payload margins of a non-dedicated (SABA etc.) turbo-trainer system. If you want more, pull the pilots altogether and go A-UAV.

Survivability:
Snort. 3,500lbs of ordnance (5K would be better, especially without widespread small PGM yet in service). 15,000ft of altitude. With a /minimum/ 350 knots and 5.5G capability _sustained_ on the airframe, minimum 9-11,000fpm climb rate.

I also disagree with costs numbers given for a competent MAWS/EXCM suite. A single or paired Israelii 'Guitar' installation on a converted FFAR tube ala Comet Pod can be bought in small numbers and 'swung round the squadron' for ops in high threat areas. Given only you have 1760 or like wired pylons in sufficient numbers to support them and accept that your coverage will be principally lower-hemisphere tailored to the dive-in/pull-out portions of the flight envelope when you are either busy running the LCOSS or unable to see back well enough to be sure. _Some is better than none_. Not least because the reaction times are so low in typical turbo country (under 5K feet) that you just don't have time use a supporting wingman in a higher orbit or yank-to-bank 'on sight' response. The MAWS, driven by a decent (Terma) EWMS gives you at least 'best shot' on expendables pop timing an probably an angle-off break direction.
DIRCM would be nice but will probably have to wait until they can integrate it with DAS or Targeting apertures directly.

Obviously bang seats that _work_, low altitude and probably adverse attitude (even a MANPADS can flip a trainer every which way) is also going to be important.

Payload:
Sensors First. Probably as pylon systems since that lets you play the musical-airframes game. I would like an Israeli SAR-in-fuel-tank and LITENING pod. Obviously if you can integrate an AAQ-21/26 type thimble directly with the airframe (i.e. the Brazillian Tucano clone) you save a hardpoint but this must never come at cost of overall performance or fleet standard/squadron numbers.
I'm a REAL BELIEVER in the notion that what you see is at least as valuable as what you bomb and where possible, it is better to let grunts do their job /better/ because you target them on with precision. Airpower that remains an unknown element is the phantom of an insurgent's nightmare. Airpower that comes down in their faces and with hostile intent is the obvious threat that they WILL LEARN to react to.
Past that... LCPK 70mm FFAR based on the CRV-7 with laser or IMU heads to compensate for long slant ranges. GBU-12 or Lizzard/Wizard equivalent if SDB is not available. Even a 'weaponized' LGTM might be workable. 'Contrary to popular opinion' the ability to carry large amounts of ordnance ala SPAD does NOT equate to instantaneous fires superiority. Guerilla/Unconventional forces now operate far more like professionals both in terms of equipment standards and basic tactics. They KNOW that they cannot afford to be in the area for more than X minutes (20-25 on average in AfG) so they tend to leverage that against the sophistication and weight of one-shot target kills before fading. Be it IED or combined arms small ambush type engagement, if you don't get them quick, they are gone.

>>
(for the record the Irish PC-9s only carry two weapons pylons on each wing and are equipped only for 12.7mm HMGs and 70mm FFARs, the remaining two pylon slots are used for fuel tanks. This is opposed to the Slovenian model which can carry gravity bombs in addition to rocket and gun systems on its four weapons pylons)
>>

If the threat doesn't shoot back, that's fine. If it does, you're 'tossing a COIN' every time. Thats the thing with buying into CAS on the cheap: You tend to look at low total investment costs 'for the fleet' without realizing that _the fleet_ is what you are putting at risk because no single element of the inventory has the performance or weapons system margin to alter tactics if not outright avoid the threat envelope. And so once the enemy has your numbers, attrition tends to pile on fast.

From this standpoint, the 'best CAS turboprop' may well be an MQ-9 Reaper pair, one at 12-20K (depending on weapon TOF and seeker graze/envelope effects) and the other at 30-40K. Because you can get a 17hr loiter at reasonable radii and your sensor coverage is fantastic while the threat simply cannot broach your altitude floor with reasonable 'insurgent' weapons systems (you even have a margin for hot and high).


KPl.
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Holy mother of all answers.

Thanks for your indepth reply Kurt, as I said in my last post it has definitely been a learning experience reading this thread.

Now excuse me while I go look up some of the Acronyms that passed me by.
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Hmmm, another question...I didn't want to start a whole new thread on such a similar question.

But is there any point in investing in armed LUHs like the EC 635 for escort and reccoinnaissance roles?
I point to Eurocopters official spiel from their website.
CONVENTIONAL ARMED VERSION
Equipped and qualified with guns/cannons and rockets for :


armed reconnaissance
*
fire support
*
escort role
*
border control
*
zone neutralization

ARMED VERSION WITH MISSILES
As an option the EC635 can be equipped with wire-guided, laser-guided, autonomous missiles for :

anti-tank missions
*
missions against hardened targets
*
air-to-air missions
*
escort of anti-tank or transport helicopters
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?mode=&noeu_id=38&lang=EN

Clearly a private enterprise is going to big up their capabilities but in a first world military (with the political strictures that are entailed) does an aircraft with these limitations have a role on operations such as peace enforcement missions.

In the roles of Escort the main requirements as I see it would be battlespace awareness, survivability and effective delivery of fire power in order to neutralise or greatly restrict hostile actions and/or head off confrontations in low tech environments such as west africa.

For reconnaissance (speaking from a pedestrian's point of view) the only role of armament would be to allow a recce team (again I'm not really very knowledgeable about air operations but I presume you would avoid just sending one Whirly out on its own over potentially hostile territory) to disengage from contact with the enemy.

Finally do helicopters of this type have the sort of range and maintenance to flight hours ratio to make them truly useful in expeditionary environments?
 

EI-TURKEY

New Member
Being new to the place I don't feel ready to start whole new threads yet, so i thought I would put this here..........
Now that the PC-9 has been established in the Irish Air Corps, it might be possible in a few years to proceed to a modern jet, mostly in an interceptor role.
Now I don't believe Ireland will ever have any requirement for a huge gas guzzling strike aircraft on the lines of a F-15 or a Eurofighter, but in the past the F-5 was repeatedly mentioned as a suitable aircraft for a defense role.
However, this aircraft is no longer in production, and the aircraft that was supposed to replace it, the F-20 never entered production.
The nearest modern equivalent seems to be the F/A/T-50 Golden Eagle built by KIA in Korea, in a joint venture with Lockheed-Martian.
I am wondering if, and I stress IF, the Irish government were to acquire such assets, would the F-50 be suitable for the purpose?I am not really interested in the politics of the argument, I just want to satisfy my curiosity about what would be the minimum requirements for an aircraft that could provide an airborne air defense system.
 
Top