Marksmanship training
- Thread starter Chino
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ThunderBolt
New Member
I am quite sure that they wont discuss this with public, bcoz it may be suppose to be confidential. But i don't know the rules nor i have been in one so i may be wrong.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The marksmanship training in the Australian Army is a phased system, whereby as you become more experienced and capable the harder the shoots become. You start off with weapons training, learning the weapon system, learning the Immediate action drills, learning to disassemble clean and maintain the various parts, reassemble the weapon and conduct the test of assembly drills, the various stages of weapon readiness, "load, action, instant" etc. These drills are practised til they're second nature.
After the basic weapons handling training, you;'d get introduced to firing positions etc with the weapon and taught the basic marksmanship principles, ie: how to hold the weapon, aim the weapon, correct trigger pulls, various firing positions, how to zero the weapon etc.
With the F-88 Steyr the initial shoot is called the "zero shoot". This shoot is conducted to confirm that you're weapon is accurately zero'd. This shoot is conducted at 100 m's. The basic qualification shoot is (or at least was, it may have changed by now) called LF3 (live fire 3)and is conducted at 300 metres.
The basic qualification for an Australian Soldier to be "operationally deployable" is for him or her to be AIRN compliant (which is the "Army's Individual readiness notice"). This amongst other things includes the Zero shoot and LF3.
Advanced marksmanship training which is basically the preserve of the Infantry and Special Forces within the Australian Army is conducted with shoots going all the way to LF10. A person who is an excellent shot and successfull completes all the shoots all the way through to LF10 is awarded the "crossed rifles" marksmanship badge. Very few soldiers ever achieve this standard however...
This is about all that can be publicly told about the ADF's shooting training. The thing to bear in mind is it is a phased system that can teach basically anyone how to use a weapon system. It is necessarily pedantic and thorough and not really all that exciting, except for certain shoots...
By the end of my service, I was a Corporal in the Australian Army and served in various Infantry Battalions and also an Armoured Recon Regt. I was also at various times a Section Commander within my Battalion's Recon Platoon and served for a time as an instructor (Directing Staff) at the Land Command Battle School in Tully, in Far North Queensland. LCBS is one of the Jungle Warfare training schools for the Australian Army and is recognised world wide as one of the best.
Cheers.
After the basic weapons handling training, you;'d get introduced to firing positions etc with the weapon and taught the basic marksmanship principles, ie: how to hold the weapon, aim the weapon, correct trigger pulls, various firing positions, how to zero the weapon etc.
With the F-88 Steyr the initial shoot is called the "zero shoot". This shoot is conducted to confirm that you're weapon is accurately zero'd. This shoot is conducted at 100 m's. The basic qualification shoot is (or at least was, it may have changed by now) called LF3 (live fire 3)and is conducted at 300 metres.
The basic qualification for an Australian Soldier to be "operationally deployable" is for him or her to be AIRN compliant (which is the "Army's Individual readiness notice"). This amongst other things includes the Zero shoot and LF3.
Advanced marksmanship training which is basically the preserve of the Infantry and Special Forces within the Australian Army is conducted with shoots going all the way to LF10. A person who is an excellent shot and successfull completes all the shoots all the way through to LF10 is awarded the "crossed rifles" marksmanship badge. Very few soldiers ever achieve this standard however...
This is about all that can be publicly told about the ADF's shooting training. The thing to bear in mind is it is a phased system that can teach basically anyone how to use a weapon system. It is necessarily pedantic and thorough and not really all that exciting, except for certain shoots...
By the end of my service, I was a Corporal in the Australian Army and served in various Infantry Battalions and also an Armoured Recon Regt. I was also at various times a Section Commander within my Battalion's Recon Platoon and served for a time as an instructor (Directing Staff) at the Land Command Battle School in Tully, in Far North Queensland. LCBS is one of the Jungle Warfare training schools for the Australian Army and is recognised world wide as one of the best.
Cheers.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #4
Erm... thanks for the advice, but, no, this part of army training is NOT classified. And I'm talking about marksmanship qualification for the average grunt, not some assassination squad.ThunderBolt said:
So no need for your paranoia.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #5
Thank you Aussie digger, but could you please describe... say a 300m marksmanship qualification shoot sequence in the ADF?
I'm a former rifleman Cpl with the Singapore Armed Forces. Here's a rough description of the marksmanship qualitification tests I took every year as a reservist.
You start at 300m with a 3-round mag each for the foxhole and prone position. Targets are figure 11's.
And then, at the signal, you run to the 200m mark and shoot a few more 3-round mags at various squatting/kneeling positions with and without window support, at stationary and moving targets.
At another signal, we run to the 100m mark and shoot off a few more magazines in various positions at stationary and moving targets.
Again, run to 50m, shoot including standing position.
Then run to 25m, shoot, and then run to 10m ans shoot from the hip.
After that, we have a night shoot. This would have us shooting at silhouette targets - no running, for safety reasons.
We would shoot from 200m to 100m, using tracers and ambient lighting. There's also one where the target has a red blinking light to simulate a enemy smoker, I think...
As you can see, the most difficult part is the running. After running each 100m, you'd be panting like a dog and trying to aim your weapon at a moving target required quite a bit of breathing control.
Your day and night shoot results are tallied together for the final results. A marksman grade result earn you the right to wear the marksmanship shoulder patch and a monetary award of SGD 200!
I'm a former rifleman Cpl with the Singapore Armed Forces. Here's a rough description of the marksmanship qualitification tests I took every year as a reservist.
You start at 300m with a 3-round mag each for the foxhole and prone position. Targets are figure 11's.
And then, at the signal, you run to the 200m mark and shoot a few more 3-round mags at various squatting/kneeling positions with and without window support, at stationary and moving targets.
At another signal, we run to the 100m mark and shoot off a few more magazines in various positions at stationary and moving targets.
Again, run to 50m, shoot including standing position.
Then run to 25m, shoot, and then run to 10m ans shoot from the hip.
After that, we have a night shoot. This would have us shooting at silhouette targets - no running, for safety reasons.
We would shoot from 200m to 100m, using tracers and ambient lighting. There's also one where the target has a red blinking light to simulate a enemy smoker, I think...
As you can see, the most difficult part is the running. After running each 100m, you'd be panting like a dog and trying to aim your weapon at a moving target required quite a bit of breathing control.
Your day and night shoot results are tallied together for the final results. A marksman grade result earn you the right to wear the marksmanship shoulder patch and a monetary award of SGD 200!
In 2006 the basic Live Fire Exercises (LF1 to LF18) were replaced with (LF1 to LF6)
They start of simply (10 round at a Figure 11 target - man sized and shaped) then increase in difficulty, moving through lying, sitting, kneeling and standing positions (either supported or unsupported) and as you go up in LF numbers there are then Rapid (5 round in 10 seconds) and Snap (1 round in 3 seconds five times) exposures, ending in moving and instinctive positions.
I was thrown out of the Australian Army, as an Artificer Armament, with falsified psychological documents in 1997. I worked from 2002 until 2009 with Meggitt Australia - who provide simulated small arms training to the ADF. As was a condition of my employment I was required to write incident reports on a variety of breeches. My job consisted of falsifying 'Passes' so that officers could remain in the Army. I made so many reports that I was eventually fired for 'a securit breech'. During my eight years with the company the Australian public was robbed blind. On more than one occasion I'd print off 100 'passes' before the unit arrived, throw them at the Conducting Officer and the unit would leave. It was my experience at that site that very few could hold, operate, use or fault find their firearm correctly.
I'm a US Army Infantryman (though I've been a Tanker too) - I've been in uniform for 21 years, 18 of which were in the US Army & Army National Guard
US Army Marksmanship Training has evolved considerably over the past 8 years or so after being pretty stagnant for the previous decade or two.
New soldiers at the 10 week Army Basic Combat Training (BCT) progress through two phases of marksmanship training - Basic Rifle Marksmanship (BRM) and Advanced Rifle Marksmanship (ARM) with either the M4 Carbine or M16A4 Rifle.
BRM is ~73 hours of instruction. 5 hours classroom (fundamentals), 16 hours simulator (EST2000), and 52 hours live fire. Between live fire blocks, Soldiers needing remedial training return to the simulator before firing live again. All BRM live fire is with iron sights, and consists of 25m grouping & zeroing, known distance range, a field fire, 2 practice record qualifications, and final record qualification.
A recent change is that all BRM at BCT is fired without gear (except for eye & ear protection of course) - the Army found that it's easier to teach fundamentals minus all of the battle rattle.
The record qualification is 40 rounds fired on type F and type E plastic "pop-up" targets. Typically each Soldier is given a 4 10 round magazines. The first 20 rounds are fired from the prone supported position (sandbag for support). 20 targets from 50m - 300m present in single or double arrays in a marked firing lane. Targets stay up for a predetermined period of time, then drop back down. The closer the target, the less time it stays up. Targets are engaged as they present. Magazine change is conducted as needed by the Soldier. Hit targets drop, and hits are recorded by a computer. After the first 20 rounds a fired, the Soldier transitions to a prone unsupported position, loads the 10 round magazine, and is presented with 10 targets. Next the Soldier transitions to a kneeling position, loads the final 10 round magazine, and engages the last 10 targets as they present. Limited alibi fired are allowed for serious mechanical malfunctions observed by range cadre. Minimum qualifying score (Marksman) is 23-29 out of 40. Sharpshooter is 30-35. Expert is 36-40.
All Soldiers assigned a weapon are required to qualify annually, though many combat units qualify twice a year. Typically they will alternate between qualifying with iron sights, then with assigned optic M68 CCO, ACOG, EOTech, etc...
Advanced Rifle Marksmanship at BCT is ~28 hours. 6 hours simulator, 8 hours classroom, 14 hours live fire. ARM includes training with optics, and IR laser (PAQ-4) reflexive fire and night fire. All ARM is conducted with all battle rattle (body armor, LBV, etc.)
Certain military occupational specialties (infantry, cav scouts, combat engineers, MPs, etc) receive additional advanced marksmanship training at their schools, including various live fire exercises (mostly CQB stuff these days).
Combat units in particular continue intense marksmanship training, particularly when preparing for deployments.
I've done all kinds of reflexive firing drills, transition drills (rifle to pistol), failure drills, off hand shooting drills, etc... A lot of it is up to the resources and creativity of your unit.
The US Army also offers advances courses like Sniper, Squad Designated Marksman, Close Quarters Marksmanship and Close Quarters Squad Designated Marksmanship. I won't go into the details of those for obvious reasons....
Adrian
US Army Marksmanship Training has evolved considerably over the past 8 years or so after being pretty stagnant for the previous decade or two.
New soldiers at the 10 week Army Basic Combat Training (BCT) progress through two phases of marksmanship training - Basic Rifle Marksmanship (BRM) and Advanced Rifle Marksmanship (ARM) with either the M4 Carbine or M16A4 Rifle.
BRM is ~73 hours of instruction. 5 hours classroom (fundamentals), 16 hours simulator (EST2000), and 52 hours live fire. Between live fire blocks, Soldiers needing remedial training return to the simulator before firing live again. All BRM live fire is with iron sights, and consists of 25m grouping & zeroing, known distance range, a field fire, 2 practice record qualifications, and final record qualification.
A recent change is that all BRM at BCT is fired without gear (except for eye & ear protection of course) - the Army found that it's easier to teach fundamentals minus all of the battle rattle.
The record qualification is 40 rounds fired on type F and type E plastic "pop-up" targets. Typically each Soldier is given a 4 10 round magazines. The first 20 rounds are fired from the prone supported position (sandbag for support). 20 targets from 50m - 300m present in single or double arrays in a marked firing lane. Targets stay up for a predetermined period of time, then drop back down. The closer the target, the less time it stays up. Targets are engaged as they present. Magazine change is conducted as needed by the Soldier. Hit targets drop, and hits are recorded by a computer. After the first 20 rounds a fired, the Soldier transitions to a prone unsupported position, loads the 10 round magazine, and is presented with 10 targets. Next the Soldier transitions to a kneeling position, loads the final 10 round magazine, and engages the last 10 targets as they present. Limited alibi fired are allowed for serious mechanical malfunctions observed by range cadre. Minimum qualifying score (Marksman) is 23-29 out of 40. Sharpshooter is 30-35. Expert is 36-40.
All Soldiers assigned a weapon are required to qualify annually, though many combat units qualify twice a year. Typically they will alternate between qualifying with iron sights, then with assigned optic M68 CCO, ACOG, EOTech, etc...
Advanced Rifle Marksmanship at BCT is ~28 hours. 6 hours simulator, 8 hours classroom, 14 hours live fire. ARM includes training with optics, and IR laser (PAQ-4) reflexive fire and night fire. All ARM is conducted with all battle rattle (body armor, LBV, etc.)
Certain military occupational specialties (infantry, cav scouts, combat engineers, MPs, etc) receive additional advanced marksmanship training at their schools, including various live fire exercises (mostly CQB stuff these days).
Combat units in particular continue intense marksmanship training, particularly when preparing for deployments.
I've done all kinds of reflexive firing drills, transition drills (rifle to pistol), failure drills, off hand shooting drills, etc... A lot of it is up to the resources and creativity of your unit.
The US Army also offers advances courses like Sniper, Squad Designated Marksman, Close Quarters Marksmanship and Close Quarters Squad Designated Marksmanship. I won't go into the details of those for obvious reasons....
Adrian
After decades of neglect and basically teaching the same stuff like during the cold war the Bundeswehr announced last year that small arms training is changed.
There will be more dynamic and close range training scenarios.
During my time one would usually go through basic training (3 month) with a similar training like described by SgtGunn although with some differences.
Battle rattle is carried right from the beginning even during simulator and maintenance training. Magazine changes are less common on normal firing ranges (which I found odd, as it should be fundamental) but are normal on bigger firing ranges were platoon/squad live fire exercises are held.
Weapons used during basic training are the P1/P8, G36 and MG3. Obviously no iron sight training with the G36...
A company/platoon commander can add alot of special live fire training exercises as long as he has enough ammo allocated to his unit.
When this is not done and the boss is lazy the training is IMO subpar.
After basic training soldiers are doing regular and much more specialised and complex training with the weapons of their trade.
I for example had alot of dismount range time with the MG3, UZI and P8 but hardly saw a G36 again.
That also means that some support units hardly ever went to the ranges again after basic training. IIRC correctly the new training regulations address this.
As for live fire rounds allocated it depends on the unit. Some units really just used enough ammo to fullfill all required qualification exercises which is hardly enough to get somebody halfway know his weapon while others fire away much much more than this. Again a question of priority by the boss.
There will be more dynamic and close range training scenarios.
During my time one would usually go through basic training (3 month) with a similar training like described by SgtGunn although with some differences.
Battle rattle is carried right from the beginning even during simulator and maintenance training. Magazine changes are less common on normal firing ranges (which I found odd, as it should be fundamental) but are normal on bigger firing ranges were platoon/squad live fire exercises are held.
Weapons used during basic training are the P1/P8, G36 and MG3. Obviously no iron sight training with the G36...
A company/platoon commander can add alot of special live fire training exercises as long as he has enough ammo allocated to his unit.
When this is not done and the boss is lazy the training is IMO subpar.
After basic training soldiers are doing regular and much more specialised and complex training with the weapons of their trade.
I for example had alot of dismount range time with the MG3, UZI and P8 but hardly saw a G36 again.
That also means that some support units hardly ever went to the ranges again after basic training. IIRC correctly the new training regulations address this.
As for live fire rounds allocated it depends on the unit. Some units really just used enough ammo to fullfill all required qualification exercises which is hardly enough to get somebody halfway know his weapon while others fire away much much more than this. Again a question of priority by the boss.
In the late 90's, when I was stationed in Germany, I did a 1 week exchange program with the Panzergrenadierbataillon 112 in Regen. It was a lot of fun (we managed to do a little training between all the beer...) and we all had the opportunity to qualify with all of the basic German Infantry weapons (at the time G3, MG3, and P1 pistol). Having "grown up" on 5.56mm rifles, the G3 took some getting used to, and all of the panzergrenadiers has some good laughs at my bruised right eye.... (I couldn't get a clear sight picture through that weird rear drum sight aperture without putting my face right up against the stock...). I was worth it because I managed to earn my Schützenschnur in Gold (one of the only foreign decorations other than jump wings authorized for wear on the US dress uniform). I liked the down range feedback we got while shooting the G3 (they used little wooden paddles that replicated the targets - empty shell casings marked hits as they were called in by a soldier down in a pit behind the targets). We brought 4 M16A2 and a 3 cases of 5.56mm (that's 6 720 round cans) and let the panzergrenadiers shoot all of it - they really seemed to enjoy the M16A2s and couldn't get over how little recoil there was compared to the G3 - they thought it was a "fun" shoot. I actually got yelled at a little by our unit armorer when we got back, because we shot the rifling out of the barrels of one of the M16...(too many rounds over a couple of hours I guess...). I also got a kick of the fact we ate "field chow" on the range off real plates! I had a similar experience when shooting a joint gunnery with a Bundeswher Panzer unit in Grafenwoehr. We heard there was coffee in the base of the tower, and expecting the typical plastic coffee jugs and paper cups, we were shocked to find real cups and saucers! Classy! LoL!
I love joint training events, and It always amazes me how well soldiers from different nations get along - ironic that the soldiers all like each other, and the civilians ultimately cause all of the problems...
Adrian
I love joint training events, and It always amazes me how well soldiers from different nations get along - ironic that the soldiers all like each other, and the civilians ultimately cause all of the problems...
Adrian
Can't post the link yet, but did the old USMC KD course with the M16A2 in the late 90's
200 yards slow fire form prone, kneeling, and standing each on a half (waist up) target.
200 yard rapid fire with a magazine change.
300 yard slow fire kneeling.
300 yard rapid fire with magazine change start standing and go to kneeling.
500 yard slow fire on a full man-sized target from the prone
In utility camo uniform with web gear and kevlar helmet, but without body armor for marksmanship. "field firing" live fire is usually done with full armor, but marksmanship is not judged. Weather was irrelevent (I qualified it in good, blistering hot, and rain conditions). Re-qualify every year.
For MOS that require it, pistol qualification is similar to the rifle, but from shorter range with the M9, obviously. Re-qualified every year.
Then there's the tank gunnery qualification, which follows the established gunnery tables. Individual crews judged mostly on Table VIII which puts a variety of targets and situations (single or combinations of "Ivan" or "Haji" infantry, PC's, tanks, moving or stationary, from a mix of defensive positions and on the move). Qualify twice a year.
200 yards slow fire form prone, kneeling, and standing each on a half (waist up) target.
200 yard rapid fire with a magazine change.
300 yard slow fire kneeling.
300 yard rapid fire with magazine change start standing and go to kneeling.
500 yard slow fire on a full man-sized target from the prone
In utility camo uniform with web gear and kevlar helmet, but without body armor for marksmanship. "field firing" live fire is usually done with full armor, but marksmanship is not judged. Weather was irrelevent (I qualified it in good, blistering hot, and rain conditions). Re-qualify every year.
For MOS that require it, pistol qualification is similar to the rifle, but from shorter range with the M9, obviously. Re-qualified every year.
Then there's the tank gunnery qualification, which follows the established gunnery tables. Individual crews judged mostly on Table VIII which puts a variety of targets and situations (single or combinations of "Ivan" or "Haji" infantry, PC's, tanks, moving or stationary, from a mix of defensive positions and on the move). Qualify twice a year.
