Does anyone know the status of the Malaysian F-5 Upgrade?
Malaysian F-5's
- Thread starter gf0012-aust
- Start date
There's a major shakeup in the RMAF because of the purchase of MKM and AEW. some aircraft will be grounded until their proper functions can be define. F-5, even though a versatile platform, was considered obsolete. i believed US have stop supplying RMAF with parts for this aircraft, especially the F-5R by request from some of it's allies in this region.
instead of using limited funds to upgrade the 2nd generation fighters lk F-5, malaysia should save up some money for purchase of more advanced 3rd generation jets.
yeah but the only difference between 3rd and 2nd is its new avionics and electronics EW suites and newer saftey gagets Sensors etc all can be retrofitted and updated just liek what the Australians did with there F-111, that is true self sufficiency !! and i strongly believe that a good avionic R&D is important. you can get the Structure reinforced by hiring private material engineers !!! the rest leaves Propulsion get it From a Russian producer they nake nice Jet engines !!Pathfinder-X said:
YOu would save a heck alot on training new Logistical setups and all the stupid induction costs!!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #7
The main issue is airframe life and fatigue. The F-5 is still used (T-38 trainer) for NASA pilot training and research. I can't recall exactly, but I was also under the impression that is twas used to emulate a supersonic cruise missile for aggressor and dissimilar combat traning.adsH said:
They're a lovely little plane, and it would be interesting to see them with upgraded avionics and a more powerful engine.
I think absolute age is probably working against them though..
YOu can get lockheed to work on MLU for them with the rite amount ! or even if Lockheed isn't interested malaysia can find private contractors to do it for them and then Malaysia can sell those upgrades to the Customers around the world that own F-5 $$$$$$ all i seeegf0012 said:
Working with Australia is an option they have Stress and fatigue detection and repair regimes
the F-5 is very much out of date juz lk the mig-21, even wif upgrade it's no match for 3rd generation fighters. upgrading these fighters n extending their service life can only be a short term solution to the aircraft aging problem. eventually these aircraft will have to be replaced.
F-5 Freedom Fighter / Tiger
The development of the Northrop F-5 began in 1954 when a Northrop team toured Europe and Asia to examine the defense needs of NATO and SEATO countries. A 1955 company design study for a lightweight supersonic fighter that would be relatively inexpensive, easy to maintain, and capable of operating out of short runways. The Air Force did not initially look favorably upon the proposal, since it did not need for a lightweight fighter. However, it did need a new trainer to replace the Lockheed T-33, and in June of 1956 the Air Force announced that it was going to acquire the trainer version, the T-38 Talon.
On April 25, 1962, the Department of Defense announced that it had chosen the aircraft for its Military Assistance Program (MAP). America's NATO and SEATO allies would now be able to acquire a supersonic warplane of world-class quality at a reasonable cost. On August 9, 1962 the aircraft was given the official designation of F-5A Freedom Fighter. Optimized for the air-to-ground role, the F-5A had only a very limited air-to-air capability, and was not equipped with a fire-control radar. The F-5B was the two-seat version of the F-5A. It was generally similar to the single-seat F-5A but had two seats in tandem for dual fighter/trainer duties.
Although all F-5A production was intended for MAP, in October 1965, the USAF "borrowed" 12 combat-ready F-5As from MAP supplies and sent them to Vietnem with the 4503rd Tactical Fighter Wing for operational service trials. This program was given the code name of *Skoshi Tiger" ("little" Tiger). and it was during this tour of duty that the F-5 picked up its Tiger nickname.
On November 20, 1970, the Northrop entry was declared the winner of the IFA (International Fighter Aircraft) to be the F-5A/B's successor. The emphasis was be on the air-superiority role for nations faced with threats from opponents operating late-generation MiG-21s. An order was placed for five development and 325 production aircraft. In January of 1971, it was reclassified as F-5E. The aircraft came to be known as *Tiger II*
The US Navy Fighter Weapons School (the so-called "Top Gun" school) at NAS Miramar acquired a total of ten F-5Es and three F-5Fs for dissimilar air combat training. Because of the F-5's characteristics, which were similar to the MiG-21, was used as 'agressor' aircraft, equipping the FWS and VF-126 at NAS Miramar, plus VF-43 at NAS Oceana. All three units later disposed of their Tiger IIs in favor of the General Dynamics F-16N. These Tiger IIs were passed on to VF-95 at NAS Key West and VFA-127 at NAS Fallon. During FY 1996, VFC-13 moved from NAS Miramar, CA, to NAS Fallon, NV, and transitioned from 12 F/A-18 to 25 F-5 aircraft. VFC-13's flight hour program will increase to offset the scheduled decommissioning of the two remaining Active Component adversary squadrons, VF-45 and VFA-127. This transition to the F-5 adversary aircraft will provide Active and Reserve Navy pilots with air-to-air combat training at significant savings to the taxpayer. Recent estimates show that the F-5 can be operated at one third of what it costs to operate an F/A-18.
Specifications
F-5A Freedom Figher
F-5E Tiger II
Engines
Two General Electric J85-GE-13 turbojets,
rated at 2720 lb.s.t., 4080 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Two General Electric J85-GE-21A turbojets, 5000 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Maximum speed
925 mph (Mach 1.4) at 36,000 feet.
Maximum cruising speed: 640 mph (Mach 0.97) at 36,000 feet
Maximum cruising speed without afterburning: Mach 0.98 at 36,000 feet.
Service ceiling
50,500 feet.
51,800 feet
Range
with maximum fuel -- 1387 miles.
Combat radius with maximum payload -- 195 miles
Combat radius with maximum fuel and two 530-pound bombs 558 miles.
with maximum fuel -- 1543 miles
Combat radius with maximum fuel and 2 Sidewinder missiles -- 656 miles.
wingspan
25 feet 3 inches,
26 feet 8 inches
length
47 feet 2 inches,
48 feet 2 inches
height
13 feet 2 inches,
13 feet 4 inches
wing area
170 square feet.
186 square feet
Weights:
8085 pounds empty,
11,477 pounds combat,
13,433 pounds gross,
20,677 pounds maximum takeoff
9683 pounds empty, 13,350 pounds combat, 15,745 pounds gross, 24,676 pounds maximum takeoff.
Armament
two 20-mm cannon
in the fuselage nose. Two AIM-9 Sidewinderat the wingtips
Five pylons carry up to 6200 pounds of ordinance or fuel tanks
loads can include four air-to-air missiles, Bullpup air-to-surface missiles, bombs, up to 20 unguided rockets, or external fuel tanks.
two 20-mm M39A2 cannon with 280 rpg
two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles at wingtips
SOURCE FAS
Five pylo
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
i still think the F-5 has a design that defines most of the 3rd gen Ac design, you just have to give the Old bird an MLU and all the avionic package radars electrics and Engines and you have anew Fighting/flying bird with i bet half as much you would spend on procureing and inducting, training!!
The development of the Northrop F-5 began in 1954 when a Northrop team toured Europe and Asia to examine the defense needs of NATO and SEATO countries. A 1955 company design study for a lightweight supersonic fighter that would be relatively inexpensive, easy to maintain, and capable of operating out of short runways. The Air Force did not initially look favorably upon the proposal, since it did not need for a lightweight fighter. However, it did need a new trainer to replace the Lockheed T-33, and in June of 1956 the Air Force announced that it was going to acquire the trainer version, the T-38 Talon.
On April 25, 1962, the Department of Defense announced that it had chosen the aircraft for its Military Assistance Program (MAP). America's NATO and SEATO allies would now be able to acquire a supersonic warplane of world-class quality at a reasonable cost. On August 9, 1962 the aircraft was given the official designation of F-5A Freedom Fighter. Optimized for the air-to-ground role, the F-5A had only a very limited air-to-air capability, and was not equipped with a fire-control radar. The F-5B was the two-seat version of the F-5A. It was generally similar to the single-seat F-5A but had two seats in tandem for dual fighter/trainer duties.
Although all F-5A production was intended for MAP, in October 1965, the USAF "borrowed" 12 combat-ready F-5As from MAP supplies and sent them to Vietnem with the 4503rd Tactical Fighter Wing for operational service trials. This program was given the code name of *Skoshi Tiger" ("little" Tiger). and it was during this tour of duty that the F-5 picked up its Tiger nickname.
On November 20, 1970, the Northrop entry was declared the winner of the IFA (International Fighter Aircraft) to be the F-5A/B's successor. The emphasis was be on the air-superiority role for nations faced with threats from opponents operating late-generation MiG-21s. An order was placed for five development and 325 production aircraft. In January of 1971, it was reclassified as F-5E. The aircraft came to be known as *Tiger II*
The US Navy Fighter Weapons School (the so-called "Top Gun" school) at NAS Miramar acquired a total of ten F-5Es and three F-5Fs for dissimilar air combat training. Because of the F-5's characteristics, which were similar to the MiG-21, was used as 'agressor' aircraft, equipping the FWS and VF-126 at NAS Miramar, plus VF-43 at NAS Oceana. All three units later disposed of their Tiger IIs in favor of the General Dynamics F-16N. These Tiger IIs were passed on to VF-95 at NAS Key West and VFA-127 at NAS Fallon. During FY 1996, VFC-13 moved from NAS Miramar, CA, to NAS Fallon, NV, and transitioned from 12 F/A-18 to 25 F-5 aircraft. VFC-13's flight hour program will increase to offset the scheduled decommissioning of the two remaining Active Component adversary squadrons, VF-45 and VFA-127. This transition to the F-5 adversary aircraft will provide Active and Reserve Navy pilots with air-to-air combat training at significant savings to the taxpayer. Recent estimates show that the F-5 can be operated at one third of what it costs to operate an F/A-18.
Specifications
F-5A Freedom Figher
F-5E Tiger II
Engines
Two General Electric J85-GE-13 turbojets,
rated at 2720 lb.s.t., 4080 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Two General Electric J85-GE-21A turbojets, 5000 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Maximum speed
925 mph (Mach 1.4) at 36,000 feet.
Maximum cruising speed: 640 mph (Mach 0.97) at 36,000 feet
Maximum cruising speed without afterburning: Mach 0.98 at 36,000 feet.
Service ceiling
50,500 feet.
51,800 feet
Range
with maximum fuel -- 1387 miles.
Combat radius with maximum payload -- 195 miles
Combat radius with maximum fuel and two 530-pound bombs 558 miles.
with maximum fuel -- 1543 miles
Combat radius with maximum fuel and 2 Sidewinder missiles -- 656 miles.
wingspan
25 feet 3 inches,
26 feet 8 inches
length
47 feet 2 inches,
48 feet 2 inches
height
13 feet 2 inches,
13 feet 4 inches
wing area
170 square feet.
186 square feet
Weights:
8085 pounds empty,
11,477 pounds combat,
13,433 pounds gross,
20,677 pounds maximum takeoff
9683 pounds empty, 13,350 pounds combat, 15,745 pounds gross, 24,676 pounds maximum takeoff.
Armament
two 20-mm cannon
in the fuselage nose. Two AIM-9 Sidewinderat the wingtips
Five pylons carry up to 6200 pounds of ordinance or fuel tanks
loads can include four air-to-air missiles, Bullpup air-to-surface missiles, bombs, up to 20 unguided rockets, or external fuel tanks.
two 20-mm M39A2 cannon with 280 rpg
two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles at wingtips
SOURCE FAS
Five pylo
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
i still think the F-5 has a design that defines most of the 3rd gen Ac design, you just have to give the Old bird an MLU and all the avionic package radars electrics and Engines and you have anew Fighting/flying bird with i bet half as much you would spend on procureing and inducting, training!!
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Very true, adsh, but you will still have a yet another aircraft (with only 9 operational examples) to support, when you're main combat fleet comprises Su-30's and (probably) FA-18 E/F Super Hornets. I personally would base my fleet around these 2 types and invest in them rather than maintain these other and lesser (no matter how good the MLU) aircraft types. The Australian F-111 is unique due to it's size, speed, range and load carrying characteristics. It has been upgradeable simply because it is not replaceable by any other aircraft. Even F-15E's aren't as good a strike aircraft (though they have other qualities) in terms of range and load carrying ability. The F-5 while a good aircraft in it's time, hardly has any characteristics that aren't shared by newer aircraft. I doubt even that it would be cheaper to maintain than newer aircraft. It might be for the US which had a massive fleet and now operates a small number of these aircraft and probably has a massive amount of spares etc left over.
The only F-5 that is certainly operate until not so near future with the RMAF is the RF-5E, a reconaissance plane that still found no match in RMAF inventory until 2020. I found out recently that RMAF will be working with the swiss to produce the parts for this birds.
Sukhois and F-18s are great but they are horribly expensive, which means that a country like Malaysia can afford only a limited number. I would advocate a large force of 2nd liners to support the frontline jets. Less capable perhaps... but more could be afforded and can be dispersed to provide coverage in low threat areas. As it is, there are probably many areas in Malaysia where an air response option is not available.
The F5s fit the bill but they are as you say old airframes. I would prefer new-builts with some avionics upgrade upto 3G level if only Grumman-Northrop would re-open the lines.
Just a tot - Rgds
The F5s fit the bill but they are as you say old airframes. I would prefer new-builts with some avionics upgrade upto 3G level if only Grumman-Northrop would re-open the lines.
Just a tot - Rgds
If you want a relatively modestly-priced aircraft in the F-5 class, the S. Koreans will be happy to supply the T-50. A single-seat version has been proposed. Probably cheaper than a new-build F-5, & already in production. Or if supersonic performance isn't essential, what about more Hawks? A single-seat version of the 120-series should be quite affordable.
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
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Yes the T-50 is a LIFT but the A-50 is the armed variant. Very impressive stats & definitely more potent than an F5. At USD22 mil per piece its still too pricey and perhaps not advisable to introduce yet another make to the line-up.
I agree that its not worthwhile to upgrade the current inventory. Perhaps we shld go for more Hawk 200's.
As I've said the MKMs are great but there are too few of them. Imagine losing even one aircraft..... that would amount to a minor disaster.
Just a tot - Rgds
P.S. BTW Swerve & Weasel, I've been reading your posts in the other threads. I think you guys are great, knowledgeable ..... keep it up.
I agree that its not worthwhile to upgrade the current inventory. Perhaps we shld go for more Hawk 200's.
As I've said the MKMs are great but there are too few of them. Imagine losing even one aircraft..... that would amount to a minor disaster.
Just a tot - Rgds
P.S. BTW Swerve & Weasel, I've been reading your posts in the other threads. I think you guys are great, knowledgeable ..... keep it up.
Very kind of you to say so.
IIRC, the A-50 is the armed (with APG-67 radar) variant of the T-50, while the F-50 is a proposal - not funded so far - for a single-seat fighter version. KAI is pushing it as an F-5E replacement for the S. Korean AF. In September last year it was reported that the S. Korean AF magazine, Gonggun, ran an article about the FA-50, an A-50 with AESA radar & tactical datalink, which the AF is interested in. The Selex Vixen 500E radar has been shown on the KAI stand at an airshow next to the A-50 . . . .
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1014499