Latest news on Italian Navy procurement

[contedicavour]

Here are the latest news on Italian Navy procurement, taken from Panorama Difesa September 07 magazine :

> procurement of 3rd and 4th U212A SSKs is now active with a formal request to Fincantieri.

> procurement of the 2nd batch of FREMM (3 ASW and 1 multi-purpose) is imminent, since orders for weapons systems such as MILAS ASW missile is being tendered for those ships. Worth noting, the first 2 FREMMs should be laid down in early 2008 but some components are apparently already being procured and sub-assembled by Fincantieri.

> procurement of the 4th LPD (around 20,000t) is in standby for the moment as the Civilian Protection Agency that should have funded it has spent the money on firefighting activity in Southern Italy this summer. Design work is however advancing also to answer the Turkish Navy's request for a LPD that should be a sistership to the Italian one.

Other than the above, DDG Duilio (2nd Horizon) will leave Riva Trigoso shipyard in late October (superstructure and equipment 70% completed so far) for completion in Muggiano shipyard. DDG Doria and CV Cavour will be handed over to the Navy by the end of the year even if they will still need about 1 year of intensive trials to become 100% operational.

Last but not least, the admiral in chief has repeated the need for 24 F-35Bs to equip Garibaldi and Cavour as of 2014.

cheers

 

[kato]

> procurement of 3rd and 4th U212A SSKs is now active with a formal request to Fincantieri.

Are there any design upgrades for these two - compared to the two already procured ones - planned, similar to German plans?

 

[contedicavour]

Are there any design upgrades for these two - compared to the two already procured ones - planned, similar to German plans?

Discussion is underway for inclusion of an active sonar and of new flanker array (towed ?) sonars. Blackshark torpedo capability will also be immediately available even if remaining stock of A-184 heavy torpedoes will be used first.
No design changes are expected however in order to augment commonality with 1st batch and lower costs.


cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Here are the latest news on Italian Navy procurement, taken from Panorama Difesa September 07 magazine :

> procurement of 3rd and 4th U212A SSKs is now active with a formal request to Fincantieri.

> procurement of the 2nd batch of FREMM (3 ASW and 1 multi-purpose) is imminent, since orders for weapons systems such as MILAS ASW missile is being tendered for those ships. Worth noting, the first 2 FREMMs should be laid down in early 2008 but some components are apparently already being procured and sub-assembled by Fincantieri.

> procurement of the 4th LPD (around 20,000t) is in standby for the moment as the Civilian Protection Agency that should have funded it has spent the money on firefighting activity in Southern Italy this summer. Design work is however advancing also to answer the Turkish Navy's request for a LPD that should be a sistership to the Italian one.

Other than the above, DDG Duilio (2nd Horizon) will leave Riva Trigoso shipyard in late October (superstructure and equipment 70% completed so far) for completion in Muggiano shipyard. DDG Doria and CV Cavour will be handed over to the Navy by the end of the year even if they will still need about 1 year of intensive trials to become 100% operational.

Last but not least, the admiral in chief has repeated the need for 24 F-35Bs to equip Garibaldi and Cavour as of 2014.

cheers

are 24 F35B enough for 2 carriers in 2014 thinking of training and attrition

 

[European]

are 24 F35B enough for 2 carriers in 2014 thinking of training and attrition

The lack of money don't permit to reach the number of 24.

Probably the MM will have no more of 16-18.
If there will be more F35B that mean that it will be the AMI (Air Force) to buy the stovl variant, but only before the agreement for a Joint JSF Force beetwen AM and MM.

 

[TimmyC]

Med Navies

The Garibaldi is not due to be replaced until 2020/2025, is this true? To be replaced by a second Cavour. The soon to be commisioned Cavour will share a similiar displacement to the new Spanish ship Juan Carlos I both being 27,000 t, was there any collaboration there in the ship design / building?
May i ask - hope i'm not out of order here - are there any rivalries between the Italian & Spanish navies?
The procurement plans of both Italy and Spain's navies are gearing up to be both modern & very capable fleets.
Where do you think they will most likely be used on the international stage? If at all. And how would you rank the European navies in general capability terms? Say top 10. Nothing nuclear.

This is to anyone..

 

[European]

The Garibaldi is not due to be replaced until 2020/2025, is this true? To be replaced by a second Cavour. The soon to be commisioned Cavour will share a similiar displacement to the new Spanish ship Juan Carlos I both being 27,000 t, was there any collaboration there in the ship design / building?

No collaboration for this new ships.

May i ask - hope i'm not out of order here - are there any rivalries between the Italian & Spanish navies?

Absolutely not. The 2 navies share a common anphibious force, called SIAF (Spanish-Italian anphibious force).

The procurement plans of both Italy and Spain's navies are gearing up to be both modern & very capable fleets.
Where do you think they will most likely be used on the international stage? If at all. And how would you rank the European navies in general capability terms? Say top 10. Nothing nuclear.

This is to anyone..

They will be used when required by the international stage.
To rank capabilities is not easy. Many variables. The defense budget is a parameter, but is not enough.

 

[swerve]

... Cavour will share a similiar displacement to the new Spanish ship Juan Carlos I both being 27,000 t, was there any collaboration there in the ship design / building? ...

Very different ships, with nothing in common in the design except what's forced by their shared functions. Different hulls, even without the stern dock of Juan Carlos I, different propulsion, different interior layout. Cavour is actually a little larger (the maximum tonnage of Juan Carlos I is in the LHD role. When functioning as an aircraft carrier she's a bit lighter), a lot faster, more heavily armed, has more sensors, etc., & is a lot more expensive.

I think the Armada has made noises about wanting a larger carrier when it's time to replace Principe de Asturias. Money & politics permitting, of course.

 

[contedicavour]

The lack of money don't permit to reach the number of 24.

Probably the MM will have no more of 16-18.
If there will be more F35B that mean that it will be the AMI (Air Force) to buy the stovl variant, but only before the agreement for a Joint JSF Force beetwen AM and MM.

Well in the latest RID September edition the C-I-C of the Italian Air Force has stated STOVL F35B will be acquired next to F35A. He's also all for joint services collaboration as he has spent 8 formative years as Inspector of the joint Navy-Air Force maritime patrol force. I'd bet we'll have approx 40-50 F35B in 2 wings. While only about half (the 24 mentioned by the admiral in Panorama Difesa) will be fully trained for carrier service, it will be hugely useful backup.

cheers

 

[neil]

i touched upon this point in another thread as well..

i believe that italian harriers participated in some of the early strikes on afghanistan during the opening stages of enduring freedom from the garribaldi..

was this so? did they perform strike or cap sorties?

any info would be appreciated..

 

[contedicavour]

i touched upon this point in another thread as well..

i believe that italian harriers participated in some of the early strikes on afghanistan during the opening stages of enduring freedom from the garribaldi..

was this so? did they perform strike or cap sorties?

any info would be appreciated..

The AV8B+ most certainly took off several times from Garibaldi with Mavericks and Paveways during the initial stages of operating freedom. Unfortunately though there is nothing official about firing "in anger" those weapons...
Bombing did happen though during the brief war with Milosevic' Serbia.

cheers

 

[neil]

thanx for the info..

i find it very interesting that the european carrier nations are moving to a two carrier force.. italy uk france and spain..

are the italians planning on maintaining a two carrier force.. or will they revert back to one once garibaldi retires?

also if italy operates 30 - 40 f35b in a joint air force navy wing.. are they not afraid they might run into the same problems the brits are facing?

a situation where the air force owns most of the planes.. resulting in a situation where there is unwillingness on air force part to release sufficient planes for the operation of two carriers?

 

[FutureTank]

Well in the latest RID September edition the C-I-C of the Italian Air Force has stated STOVL F35B will be acquired next to F35A. He's also all for joint services collaboration as he has spent 8 formative years as Inspector of the joint Navy-Air Force maritime patrol force. I'd bet we'll have approx 40-50 F35B in 2 wings. While only about half (the 24 mentioned by the admiral in Panorama Difesa) will be fully trained for carrier service, it will be hugely useful backup.

cheers

Are the Italian F-35Bs expected to be operated from Garibaldi before it is decommissioned?

 

[contedicavour]

thanx for the info..

i find it very interesting that the european carrier nations are moving to a two carrier force.. italy uk france and spain..

are the italians planning on maintaining a two carrier force.. or will they revert back to one once garibaldi retires?

also if italy operates 30 - 40 f35b in a joint air force navy wing.. are they not afraid they might run into the same problems the brits are facing?

a situation where the air force owns most of the planes.. resulting in a situation where there is unwillingness on air force part to release sufficient planes for the operation of two carriers?

The Navy is determined to defend a 2-carrier navy. Garibaldi should be replaced around 2020 by a new carrier or at least a large multi-role LHD capable of operating F35Bs.
Actually nothing has been decided regarding a joint Air Force/Navy F35B squadron. A lot of discussions are underway however and the Armed Forces Commander in Chief is an admiral who used to run joint Air Force/Navy maritime patrol unit with Atlantic MPAs.
I'd expect the Navy squadron to operate at least from the same base as the Air Force F35B squadron, sharing logistics and training if not the same boss... anyway we'll start receiving operational F35Bs in 2014, which leaves us some time still to figure out what to do.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Are the Italian F-35Bs expected to be operated from Garibaldi before it is decommissioned?

We'll certainly see some landing and taking off from Garibaldi between 2014 and 2020. However it will mostly be for training and not for operational missions (unless it's an emergency and Cavour is under maintenance) because the elevators are a bit too small for confortable moving of F35Bs to the hangar, and the flight deck would get very crowded with just 6 F35Bs...
Anyway non specialists (including the politicians deciding the budgets) will see F35Bs on the Garibaldi because the Navy will use it as a reminder that Cavour needs a sister ship (more or less similar) to be able to operate at anytime a F35B squadron.
Anyway, Garibaldi will undergo a major update as of 2009 and the list of changes hasn't been finalized yet. If the elevators are enlarged then it would be a major sign that F35Bs will be aboard for more than showing off the flag.

cheers

 

[Glendora]

Update at start of 2014

Hello,
I am bringing up this old thread for the ones in this forum who would like an update on the Italian Navy future procurement.
Recently, after much arguing with the defense commission of the Parliament, the Chief of Staff of the Italian Navy, Admiral De Giorgi, succeded to unlock extra funds, apart from the normal budget for starting a major shipbuilding programme which will take about 10 years.
Defensenews posted an article named "Italy Plans €6B Ship Buy" which could be of help for the ones intersted. I am unable to post links here, but you could easily find the text.

The deal with Fincantieri for the construction of a new LHD to reaplce one or two of the Santi will hopefully be finalized soon. Other priority project is the acquisition of a new logistic support vessel. Then, in order to replace the Soldati, Minerva and Cassiopea classes the deal for construction of 8 multipurpose ships (out of planned total of 12) should be finalized soon. Also is planned the acquisition of 2 new minesweepers.

By the way, on the Italian forums there has been in the last months much ado about these multipurpose ships that should constitute the 2nd line of our navy. Not properly OPVs, but more similiar to frigades, they should be divided in 2 sub-classes: UPAD Light and UPAD Combat. The graphic rendering on Defensenews is not updated. Anyway many deem this kind of ships (3.5 tons of displacement, hangar for 2 NH-90 choppers, 35 knots of speed (useless or counter-productive?), a 127mm Vulcano gun in the bow and, only for the Combat sublclass, a 76mm Davide gun at the stern, up to 16/24 VLS for Aster and/or Scalp Naval/Tommy missiles, advanced radar and sensors in the Unimast form. Frankly, I think too much for 2nd line ships and too beefy to remain in the budget for €350 million each vessel.

Apart from the "extra budget", with the normal MoD budget, the deal for the 7th and 8th FREMM frigades (out of a total number of 10 planned) was signed, as well as the deal for a USSP-IDR/multirole submarine support vessel, with roles also in oceanographic reserches.
Situation for submarines: 4 U-212/Todaro class and 2 older Sauro class in service in the next years.

For the medium/long term the Italian navy plans to acquire, after the 10 years recent naval law:
The 9th and 10th FREMM frigades, as planned.
1 LHA to take over the Garibaldi and the remaining Santi(s); hopefully a further LHD.
1 or 2 more LSSs.
4 more multipurpose UPADs, as planned.
An unidentified number of minesweepers.


On a downhill note about the Italian military budget: expect for the future a further cut of the 90 F-35 scheduled for the total of Italian military. I hope that the slight number of "B"s allocated to the navy (15) will remain unouched or eventually increase and that the Air Force will give up his desideratia for the 15 "B"s.