Laser targeting systems on armoured vehicles

[Marsh]

HI all,

am I right in thinking that laser systems on most modern armoured fighting vehicles are used primarily for range finding but not for 'painting'? My understanding is that the main gun-fired laser beam riding kit was not a mjaor feature of NATO armies and is not used on their vehicles any more but still present on Russian and Russian-supplied systems.

Does anyone know the difference in the physical characteristics of the laser used fo these two roles - wavelength, power and so forth?

Marsh

 

[carman1877]

I don't know about the Russian but im pretty sure that the M1A2 and the leopard 2 do not have "painting" lasers but only to find range to target. My guess would be that, for example if an Abrams needed support it could possibly just use GPS to guide in the support.

Hope that Helps

 

[Lopex]

I don't know about the Russian but im pretty sure that the M1A2 and the leopard 2 do not have "painting" lasers but only to find range to target. My guess would be that, for example if an Abrams needed support it could possibly just use GPS to guide in the support.

Hope that Helps

The range finder lasers and the lasers for LGBs are not interchangeable.During the Falklands conflict the British were given some of the new Paveway LGBs to carry on the Sea Harrier by the Americans. They had no instructions or training on how to use them. The pilots guessed that the range finding laser would be able to paint the target for them. It didn't! They did eventually get the laser designators to the SAS but the war was almost over by the time they had worked out how to use the system.
The laser energy from the designator must have the correct Pulse Repetition Frequency to activate the LGB.

 

[Duffy]

I don't think it will be long before we see systems mounted on vehicles. As for the difference its mostly the design of the diodes used, It looks like the AN/PED1 system (link below) still uses two separate system in one unit. The bottom looks like the EDM and the top the designator.
Northrop Grumman AN/PED-1 Lightweight Laser Designator Rangefinder (LLDR) (United States) - Jane's Electro-Optic Systems

 

[Waylander]

At least in the Abrams as well as the Leopard one would need a new Laser for painting.
The ones currently in use cannot lase that constantly before they are blocked by the safety system which prevents them from burning through.

IIRC the lasers on the latest Merkava versions are also able to paint targets for airstrikes.

I still wonder how they integrated LAHAT into the Leopard II.
I would imagine it needs at least some modifications to the laser system.

I would also like to see and independent painting capability on the tank for example by incorporating something like the AN/PED-1 into the independent commanders sight.
Would allow for painting a target by the one who is in charge anyway while the gunner can go on scanning for targets or go on performing the firefight.

 

[Duffy]

At least in the Abrams as well as the Leopard one would need a new Laser for painting.
The ones currently in use cannot lase that constantly before they are blocked by the safety system which prevents them from burning through.

IIRC the lasers on the latest Merkava versions are also able to paint targets for airstrikes.

I still wonder how they integrated LAHAT into the Leopard II.
I would imagine it needs at least some modifications to the laser system.

I would also like to see and independent painting capability on the tank for example by incorporating something like the AN/PED-1 into the independent commanders sight.
Would allow for painting a target by the one who is in charge anyway while the gunner can go on scanning for targets or go on performing the firefight.

I could see something like the AN/PED1 on the commanders sight of the Abrams with in the next few years. Even to paint it for another Abrams. With the US pushing air support with a strong enough laser a tank commander could paint targets five maybe ten miles away. With it mounted on a vehicle power consumption is no concern.

 

[Marsh]

Thanks guys, that's very interesting. I did not realise the Bundeswehr had fited this system to its Leopard, is that not a slight departure from usual recent NATO standard?

From what was said, I understand you cannot use a rangefinder for lasing, suggestign that Soviet / Russian designs had a longer maximum active period before overheating - ie were designed for this dual purpose. I suppose the danger is this would also give away the location of the vehicle, particularly with a beam-riding weapon which requires direct line of sight?

Marsh

 

[Duffy]

Marsh I am no expert but all the systems I have read about seem to be modular. I believe the Russian designs are also modular. '1D22 Laser Target Designator/Range finder In Complex' is not unlike the US Army's G/VLLD system. And the system on the BMP-3 with the AT-10 stabber has the 1D16-3 laser range finder, and the 1K13-2 gunner's sight/guidance laser.
As for having designators on MBT I think the attitude at least in the us army is if you can get the target in the line of sight it should be a kill, If the target is out of range of the Abraham's then the Abraham's should be well out of the targets range. The limitation is the ammo and not the targeting system. Another problem with laser designator is dust and smoke, and both a common around armer.
I hope this help you.

 

[turin]

Bundeswehr had fited this system to its Leopard, is that not a slight departure from usual recent NATO standard?

The Bundeswehr has not ordered the LAHAT-upgrade. It is offered by Rheinmetall & IAI and trials have taken place, at least thats what I assume based on published pictures, but currently no country operates Leopard II with LAHAT.

 

[eckherl]

The Bundeswehr has not ordered the LAHAT-upgrade. It is offered by Rheinmetall & IAI and trials have taken place, at least thats what I assume based on published pictures, but currently no country operates Leopard II with LAHAT.

I concur, tested but not implemented as of yet if it ever will be.

 

[eckherl]

At least in the Abrams as well as the Leopard one would need a new Laser for painting.
The ones currently in use cannot lase that constantly before they are blocked by the safety system which prevents them from burning through.

IIRC the lasers on the latest Merkava versions are also able to paint targets for airstrikes.

I still wonder how they integrated LAHAT into the Leopard II.
I would imagine it needs at least some modifications to the laser system.

I would also like to see and independent painting capability on the tank for example by incorporating something like the AN/PED-1 into the independent commanders sight.
Would allow for painting a target by the one who is in charge anyway while the gunner can go on scanning for targets or go on performing the firefight.

Burning through, do you mean overheating, a tank range finding laser does take more power to operate versus a laser designator and will burn through battlefield and weather conditions at a better success rate. Also the power on tank range finders can be tweaked to give you better returns in emergency degraded scenarios, this is not advisable to continue to operate the laser at this new power setting that you have implemented into it and after the emergency scenario deminishes you need to reset the laser at the proper setting or risk burning the unit out over long term use.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah, I actually mean overheating. Looks like burning out is the right english term.
As you know one can only laser a target so often before the laser safety system blocks the next try.
I have no idea if the lasers currently in use for range finding can be modified so that they are able to send a less powerfull but constant beam to paint a target.

 

[eckherl]

Yeah, I actually mean overheating. Looks like burning out is the right english term.
As you know one can only laser a target so often before the laser safety system blocks the next try.
I have no idea if the lasers currently in use for range finding can be modified so that they are able to send a less powerfull but constant beam to paint a target.

They cannot be adjusted to give a constant beam, but it is possible to up the power on them to burn through some battlefield conditions.

 

[joeroot]

They cannot be adjusted to give a constant beam, but it is possible to up the power on them to burn through some battlefield conditions.

what if you were to up the power source and put a converter or adapter into it to controle the amount of power used and adjust it to the condition or conditions needed to be overcome