K-8 Advanced Jet Trainer / A-8 Attack Aircraft replacement for Q-5/A-5

[Ethan]

Hi guys, This topic is related to the one I posted in "PAF in 2015" This regards an attack aircraft that does not exist.

Pakistan along with China developed the K-8 Advanced jet trainer in the late 80's and early 90's. Uptil now PAF has taken delivery of 16 K-8s. It will soon begin production of the aircraft at PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex)

I think that Pakistan needs to replace its vintage fleet of A-5/Q-5 attack aircraft as these are hopelessley oudated and based on the 1950s vinate Mig-19. No amount of upgrades will do any good.

I believe the logical candidate for this role would be an attack verison of the K-8 jet trainer. The South Koreans did it with ther KTX-2 AJT, the attack version is call the A-50.

A-8 the attack version of the K-8 could be slightly longer, so that it can carry more fuel for longer range. It could be fitted with the Gifo-7 radar that is already produced at PAC and other avionics already developed for FC-1. The aircraft would also have to be heavily armored so that it could take heavy punishment from ground FLACK. It would be armed with a variety of rockets/dumb bombs, laser guided bombs, and lager guided/millimeter wave guided fire and forget anti tank missiles.

The purpose of the aircraft would be explicitly providing close airsupport for PAF infantry and armored divisions as well as attack against massed Indian armored formations. That aircraft basically would be in the same class as A-10 Warthog and the Su-25/28.

 

[Aegis]

I think that Pakistan needs to replace its vintage fleet of A-5/Q-5 attack aircraft as these are hopelessley oudated and based on the 1950s vinate Mig-19. No amount of upgrades will do any good.

A-8 the attack version of the K-8 could be slightly longer, so that it can carry more fuel for longer range. It could be fitted with the Gifo-7 radar that is already produced at PAC and other avionics already developed for FC-1. The aircraft would also have to be heavily armored so that it could take heavy punishment from ground FLACK. It would be armed with a variety of rockets/dumb bombs, laser guided bombs, and lager guided/millimeter wave guided fire and forget anti tank missiles.

Sounds very easy but in reality will not be that simple! The most K-8 will become a light weight attack aircraft! Don't forget,the primary purpose of K-8 is a trainer,not attacking aircraft. It may looka cheap way to quickly equip the airforce with newer attack aircraft! But in long run may not be effective to satisfy PAF needs!

 

[mysterious]

K-8 is a dual purpose jet my friend. Its an AJT as well as a light ground support AC. It was designed that way. I'm sure further enhancements can be made to make it more effective like Ethan said without any significant problems.

 

[Ethan]

Almost every AJT designed now a days has a combat variant of it also. I know one already exists for K-8, all I am saying is that it could be a more evolved aircraft, with additional armor and some more advanced avionics that already exist and are in service.

More than that, K-8 has had great success in Africa and middle east. Who knows an attack variant developed could follow on the success of the K-8 trainer.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Almost every AJT designed now a days has a combat variant of it also. I know one already exists for K-8, all I am saying is that it could be a more evolved aircraft, with additional armor and some more advanced avionics that already exist and are in service.

More than that, K-8 has had great success in Africa and middle east. Who knows an attack variant developed could follow on the success of the K-8 trainer.

It really gets down to an issue of economics, and economies of scale. Most airforces are abandoning high end trainers in the tier one combat aircraft as it's cheaper to and more efficient (with current sim software) to use sim trainers.

glassed up lead in fighters are still going to be used (eg the Hawk is going to get a JSF glass upgrade so as to reduce the necessity for actualy training in a JSF) as it's more efficient and starts the combat pilot off at the basics.

my argument is that trainers/ sans lead in fighters are of use when they do glass up the tier one fighters. Otherwise they are a failed purchasing decision that hasn't tried to gain combat training efficiencies. eg, they are not Force Symbiotic.

Simulators are now unbelievably effective - even the military (as in only available to defence force personnel) based PC ones make you concentrate and work at the mission rather than act as "shoot em ups"

 

[Ethan]

gf, I am not really sure what it is that you are trying to get at. But actually there is a large market out there in the next twenty years for AJT/LIFT and attack aircraft. Specially in the third world countries. A combination of AJT / attack aircraft offer great economies of scale because it ends being the same platform and training and maintenance are much simpler. Above all these are cheaper than modern fighters which are tens of millions of dollars.

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf, I am not really sure what it is that you are trying to get at. But actually there is a large market out there in the next twenty years for AJT/LIFT and attack aircraft. Specially in the third world countries. A combination of AJT / attack aircraft offer great economies of scale because it ends being the same platform and training and maintenance are much simpler. Above all these are cheaper than modern fighters which are tens of millions of dollars.

I should have made myself clearer, I was referring to relatively modern and scaled airforces.

 

[P.A.F]

pakistan only has a hand full of these K-8 jets and WANTED MORE. however according to flight international china said no as pakistan wanted western engines in it. so what now :? :? :?

 

[SABRE]

pakistan only has a hand full of these K-8 jets and WANTED MORE. however according to flight international china said no as pakistan wanted western engines in it. so what now :? :? :?

Where did u hear that from. I have not herd abt tht. Any link?

 

[P.A.F]

well i have subscribed to flight international and it was writen in one of the articles.

 

[gf0012-aust]

well i have subscribed to flight international and it was writen in one of the articles.

If you give us the month of publication we might be able to get an electronic reference to it.

Even the year of publication will enable a search to be conducted.

 

[P.A.F]

well it was in the 16-22 november 2004 issue. i'll quote what it says.

"Until the rapprochement with the USA, china was pakistan's principal arms supplier and the two countries finally agreed to the 50:50 joint development of the JF-17/FC-1/Super-7 fighter in 1999, with the first prototype flying in august 2003. pakistan wants up to 150 aircraft. Meanwhile, pakistan continues to take delivery of F-7s, including 40 F-7PGs, the latest standard and also referred to as F-7MGs. pakistan has stated an interest in acquiring up to at least another 25 F-7PGs.
The two countries have also co-operated in the development of the k-8 Karakorum trainer. eight from a 75 aircraft requirement have been delivered, but no more look likely to arrive, not least because the Chinese air force will not accept the aircraft with a western engine.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks for making the effort PAF!

 

[P.A.F]

no problem. anyway i still think that pakistan should agree to have chinese or russian engines in it. we shouldn't just rely on the west all the time.

 

[armage]

Can the PAF try the JH-7A as a heavy attacker and use the JL-15 and JL-9 as light attackers and trainer?

 

[Ethan]

P.A.F: Pakistan took delivery of an intial batch of 8 K-8 AJTs in early 90s. I beileve it was in 1994 and just now in 2003~2004 period it took delivery of an additional 8 trainers. It has been reported that Pakistan will begin the production of the aircraft at PAC in 2005. What's interesting is that no mention was made regarding what engine is being used in the current version of the K-8s for Pakistan. It was also said that Pakistan may end up acquiring a total of 100 of these trainers as opposed to the inital stated requirement for 75.

 

[Ethan]

Armage:

I believe that PAF had initially looked at the JH-7 but rejected it becuase it was underpowered and there were issues with the avionics. However, I am not sure if they have looked at the JH-7A version. It seems to be a good long range attack aircraft in the same class as Gr. 1 Tornda IDS and Su-24 fighter bombers. However, I am not sure this is the right aircraft for replacing the A-5/Q-5 series. It may be more suitable to replace the attack version of the Mirage series aircraft such as the Mirage V.

What do you think about the Brazilian/Italian AMX attack aircraft. I believe it could be a good candidate for replacing the A-5.

 

[rajupaki]

Hi guys, This topic is related to the one I posted in "PAF in 2015" This regards an attack aircraft that does not exist.

Pakistan along with China developed the K-8 Advanced jet trainer in the late 80's and early 90's. Uptil now PAF has taken delivery of 16 K-8s. It will soon begin production of the aircraft at PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex)

I think that Pakistan needs to replace its vintage fleet of A-5/Q-5 attack aircraft as these are hopelessley oudated and based on the 1950s vinate Mig-19. No amount of upgrades will do any good.

I believe the logical candidate for this role would be an attack verison of the K-8 jet trainer. The South Koreans did it with ther KTX-2 AJT, the attack version is call the A-50.

A-8 the attack version of the K-8 could be slightly longer, so that it can carry more fuel for longer range. It could be fitted with the Gifo-7 radar that is already produced at PAC and other avionics already developed for FC-1. The aircraft would also have to be heavily armored so that it could take heavy punishment from ground FLACK. It would be armed with a variety of rockets/dumb bombs, laser guided bombs, and lager guided/millimeter wave guided fire and forget anti tank missiles.

The purpose of the aircraft would be explicitly providing close airsupport for PAF infantry and armored divisions as well as attack against massed Indian armored formations. That aircraft basically would be in the same class as A-10 Warthog and the Su-25/28.

Sounds like converting a frigate into a submarine to me. the maximum weight which K-8 can hold is 1000 Pounds(nearly 500kg). hardly it can carry two 250 kg bombs, and secondly its speed is to slow as compared to a10 that it will be an easy target to anti-aircrafts guns mounted on tanks, or sholder mounted SAMS which will be in the battle feild. I think we should concentrate on how to grow our JF17 into a more lethal aircraft.

 

[Ethan]

Well here is a wonderful idea, when aircraft is being converted into attack variant, you could upgrade the engine along with the armor and avionics. A-10 is subsonic aircraft, it is vulnerable to FLAK. The designers took that into account and that is why they made it so heavily armored.

 

[aaaditya]

the cost involved is too high (complete reworking of design,new engines,avionics,another series if testflights ,increased loads etc).the aircraft will no longer remain as cheap as it is now.it would be better to develop a new aircraft from scratch(a modified design no matter how extensively modified will have design constraints) or buy a new attack aircraft.