JSF v EuroFighter in AA combat
- Thread starter Big-E
- Start date
hopefully we will never know! both a/c will be supported by awacs, so think the stealth of JSF "may" give it the edge to give it first look,first volley! with the decoys and ECM that the typhoon operates, more than one shot will be required for a kill regardless of the platform engageing it.
In normal ways it's really the question who is detected first by the enemy AWAACS or ground radar station and is able to fire its AMRAAMs.
If it comes to a dogfight the F-35 should try to escape like it is the same with every other primary AA fighter which it is facing. The F-35 should try to get bvr kills despite going into dogfight with an EF, F-22, Su-30, MiG-29, etc.
If it comes to a dogfight the F-35 should try to escape like it is the same with every other primary AA fighter which it is facing. The F-35 should try to get bvr kills despite going into dogfight with an EF, F-22, Su-30, MiG-29, etc.
Marc Aurel
New Member
Concerning flight parameters, the EF will ouclass the JSF, as its climb rate, turn rate and especially its supersonic abilities are superb. When equipped with directed thrust engines in the future, EF will probably be the best manned dogfighting machine on earth (and probably the last manned one built). The only advantage JSF has is stealth, which can be pretty decisive, as long as there is no technology to beat it. But consider this is just a matter of time. Also i read that JSF stealth technology is not the best, because it just misses bandwith ranges of more modern radar systems, like the EF has, for sure. Thats because JSF cost has to be limited with the lots of customers in view, not like for F-22 Raptor, which is just cutting edge for the highest price tag possible.
I would say, outcome of AA-Combat between JSF and Ef ist just a matter of tactics and circumstances, both have their distinctive advantages. But nobody can tell for sure, i guess.
I would say, outcome of AA-Combat between JSF and Ef ist just a matter of tactics and circumstances, both have their distinctive advantages. But nobody can tell for sure, i guess.
Marc Aurel
New Member
Remember this is only possible with the Marine/UK Version and I dont think it would be a good idea as it takes a while to stop and hover, the plane would also be an easy target and difficult to maneuver, take a while to recover speed if attacked and at least one cannot say if it is possible with a full combat and fuel load, same as the Harrier Jets, which jettison fuel and heavy weapons before making an vertical touchdown on the carrier.
Ultimately its a sensor/range war, Does the Typhoon have CAPTOR or CAESAR, is it supported by AWACS, Does the JSF have the offensive range that METEOR will give??.
It boils down to can the Typhoon detect and engage the JSF before the JSF can launch an AMRAAM at the Typhoon and escape.
This depends on a whole heap of things, the RCS/Thermal footprint/Aspect of the JSF, the on/off board sensors used by both, ROE, its not a simple equation.
What is the JSF's stealth tuned for???? ground based radars or airborne??, there are always design compromises, whats the JSF's primary mission (given the F-22 is AtoA).
Finally what version of JSF is it?
Bill Sweetman (Janes) said:-
:dodgy
To sum up.. depending on the situation and circumstances both are likely to win, But the art is in fighting when circumstances favour your aircraft.
Cheers
It boils down to can the Typhoon detect and engage the JSF before the JSF can launch an AMRAAM at the Typhoon and escape.
This depends on a whole heap of things, the RCS/Thermal footprint/Aspect of the JSF, the on/off board sensors used by both, ROE, its not a simple equation.
What is the JSF's stealth tuned for???? ground based radars or airborne??, there are always design compromises, whats the JSF's primary mission (given the F-22 is AtoA).
Finally what version of JSF is it?
Bill Sweetman (Janes) said:-
Hmm no 'export variant' just 'export variants'
:dodgyTo sum up.. depending on the situation and circumstances both are likely to win, But the art is in fighting when circumstances favour your aircraft.
Cheers
I just recieved an invite to the next Stealth Conf in London - Bill Sweetman is a guest speaker - so it would be interesting to see what he says. Unfort I can't attend as I'll be tied up doing stuff in Germany.JWCook said:Finally what version of JSF is it?
Bill Sweetman (Janes) said:-
Hmm no 'export variant' just 'export variants'
maybe you should get along
if you're interested I'll send you the details.I'd love too.... But - I'm afraid the wife might object to me selling the children for the airfare.. .
Would they consider moving it to Oz...
After all the rumour was we were providing a rather large playground for the UK to test stealth 'stuff'...
Cheers
.Would they consider moving it to Oz...
After all the rumour was we were providing a rather large playground for the UK to test stealth 'stuff'...
Cheers
one point that people are forgetting in this JSF stealth capabilities,even if the opposing platform,s radar can see through the JSF,s stealth, can the radar of its bvr missile? i.e can meteor,R77 see the JSF?
Well, considering that BAEa are responsible for managing Woomera and for making it a commercial success - I'd guess that the odds are higher.JWCook said:
The amount of Hypersonic missile testing alone in the last few years has quadrupled. The Ewarfare people are always dribbling around as well.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
By the time the JSF is in-service, far more effective and longer ranging AMRAAM variants are due to be in-service as well. The AIM-120D for instance has a planned IOC of 2008 and features amongst other things a 50% increase in range over the latest AIM-120C-7 variants, giving AMRAAM a range of around 150k's, which should make the JSF competitive against most other aircraft, particularly when it's stealth and LPI AESA radar are taken into account.
In relation to the Typhoon's planned TVC and AESA radar upgrades, well Tranche 3 haven't been funded yet and possibly won't. JSF won't have TVC engines, but will be fitted with a developed version of the F-22A's radar, fro the getgo. It "should" have a significant advantage in detection ranges over most other radars because of this...
In relation to the Typhoon's planned TVC and AESA radar upgrades, well Tranche 3 haven't been funded yet and possibly won't. JSF won't have TVC engines, but will be fitted with a developed version of the F-22A's radar, fro the getgo. It "should" have a significant advantage in detection ranges over most other radars because of this...
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
From a quick trip "round" the net, the F-35A's, APG-81 radar is a development of the APG-77 from the F-22. Both are built by Northrop Grumman and are AESA, "LPI" style radars with "agile beam steering" capability.
Here's a quick quote from airforce-technology.com
RADAR
Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is developing the advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) AN/APG-81 multi-function radar. The AN/APG-81AESA will combine an integrated radio frequency subsystem with a multifunction array. The radar system will also incorporate the agile beam steering capabilities developed for the APG-77. Northrop Grumman delivered the first radar to Lockheed Martin in March 2005 for flight testing."
Some "experts", Messir's Kopp and Goon included, state that this radar will only be about 2/3rd's as capable, due to a supposed reduced "radar module count" using "same generation" TR modules. Nevermind that the APG-81 has benefited from roughly 10 years of development work on the APG-77 by the SAME manufacturer...
Nevermind that the upgrades planned for F-22A have since been canned for cost reasons, etc, etc...
Here's a quick quote from airforce-technology.com
RADAR
Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is developing the advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) AN/APG-81 multi-function radar. The AN/APG-81AESA will combine an integrated radio frequency subsystem with a multifunction array. The radar system will also incorporate the agile beam steering capabilities developed for the APG-77. Northrop Grumman delivered the first radar to Lockheed Martin in March 2005 for flight testing."
Some "experts", Messir's Kopp and Goon included, state that this radar will only be about 2/3rd's as capable, due to a supposed reduced "radar module count" using "same generation" TR modules. Nevermind that the APG-81 has benefited from roughly 10 years of development work on the APG-77 by the SAME manufacturer...
Nevermind that the upgrades planned for F-22A have since been canned for cost reasons, etc, etc...
While the APG-81 is a development of the APG-77, the -81 has a smaller aperture than the -77, and therefore potentially less 'grunt'. However, alot of the -81's backend improvements in software and hardware which allow for more robust ECCM, better communications, reliability and target discrimination will flow back to the F-22 in spiral developments...if indeed these go ahead! As long as F-22 production flows over into a new presidential administration, there's still a hope I guess!Aussie Digger said:
Magoo
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Marc Aurel
New Member
JSF vs. EF
The whole question is kinda esoteric. It just cannot be answered right now and maybe never will. All the specifical tech speculations are just that, speculations.
The whole question is kinda esoteric. It just cannot be answered right now and maybe never will. All the specifical tech speculations are just that, speculations.
contedicavour
New Member
Typhoon is more in the same league as F-22, not JSF...
The Typhoon is primarily an air-to-air fighter, so its competitor would rather be the F-22 than the JSF, which is supposed to be primarily a ground-attack fighterbomber.
As rightly stated in this thread, if a JSF were to be attacked by pure air superiority fighters such as the Typhoon or recent versions of the SU27, its role would be to escape and try to finish the bombing raid...
I believe in dedicated-purpose planes, either fighters or fighter-bombers. Multi-purpose planes will never be comparable. An F-16, arguably the best multi-purpose of all, will never match a F-15C or a SU-27 in air-to-air beyond visual range combat, nor a Tornado IDS (after MLU) in very-low-altitude bombing night attacks, for example.
cheers
The Typhoon is primarily an air-to-air fighter, so its competitor would rather be the F-22 than the JSF, which is supposed to be primarily a ground-attack fighterbomber.
As rightly stated in this thread, if a JSF were to be attacked by pure air superiority fighters such as the Typhoon or recent versions of the SU27, its role would be to escape and try to finish the bombing raid...
I believe in dedicated-purpose planes, either fighters or fighter-bombers. Multi-purpose planes will never be comparable. An F-16, arguably the best multi-purpose of all, will never match a F-15C or a SU-27 in air-to-air beyond visual range combat, nor a Tornado IDS (after MLU) in very-low-altitude bombing night attacks, for example.
cheers
It's probably worth saying it here, If USAF JSF and RAF Typhoons were put into a battle and pitted against each other. I would guess both units would have a similar networking capabilities and similar AEW supports, so i would say the Stealth factor may not be an advantage when the Typhoon moves in closer for the kill :shudder