Israel Vs Lebanon

[Mr Waka]

Israeli Soliders are continuing there efforts to destroy Hezbollah
increasing the number of airstrikes within the last 48hrs. Israeli special forces and ground troops are active in "search n destroy" missions going further deep into Lebanon.Israel dropped leaflets, warning any civilians remaining in southern Lebanon to leave immediately

The lebanon Prime Minister Fouad Siniora condemns Hezbollah for sparking the incident but also attacked Israel for what it use of "excessive" force.
Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz has warned that Israel is prepared to launch a full-scale ground operation if necessary, saying "we have no intention of conquering Lebanon but... we will do it without thinking twice."
Lebanese Defence Minister Elias Murr says the country's army will go into battle if Israel invades Lebanon

( A UN Observation Post on the border was hit by arty or some kind mortar)

If Israel were to launch a full ground operation or "invasion" so to speak
Could the lebanese actually put up a fight?

How could possible operations be carried out?

I would be interested in what you all have to say about topic as i have very little knowledge regarding the capabilities of lebanon and warefare of the region

 

[swerve]

The most powerful military force in Lebanon isn't the Lebanese army, but Hezbollah. It isn't capable of standing up to Israeli forces in pitched battles (Israel has both superior numbers & overwhelming firepower), but proved itself adept at harassing & ambushing, when Israeli troops were last in Lebanon. So I'd expect, if Israel invades, Israeli troops advancing, trying to fix & destroy Hezbullah units, which would try to evade direct confrontation in favour of hit-and-run or hit-and-hide tactics, & stay-behinds who'd attack Israeli rear areas.

The Lebanese army would probably do nothing unless directly attacked. Since the south of Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah, & the Lebanese army keeps out of the area, it would be unlikely to meet Israeli troops unless they advance right through the Hezbollah-controlled region.

 

[Gollevainen]

In purely theoretical hypotese, If there would be some sort of communication and co-worknig between the Lebanese army and hizbollah, the later should let the invasion force go straight trhu the southern area and let the Lebanese army to take confrontation against the Israels. Not anything big but just enough that the Israeli troops will have to fight agaisnt them...and only then would hizbollah make it's moves. Surrounding, encirclement or motitus (as we call it) is the basic ABC of area defence doctrine often called by it's not so formal name gurellia warfare. Even the "superior" IDF isen't that good it can just run trough well organised areadefence...

...but like I said, it was only theoretical hypotese, in reality i doupt there is any sort of communication between Lebanese army and the Hizbollah...nor a good enough command & control network to plan succesfull areadefence...

 

[old faithful]

I am fairly pessimistic about any country trying to occupy anywhere in the middle east,regardless of tactics,logistics,technology,expertise etc.....the place is historicly a bloody mess. "insurgents" are killed,by soldiers or anonymous bombs,inoccent kids familys killed.The kids grow up hating the occupieing force and become "insurgents" them selves and so go,s the cycle....there may be periods of ,i wont say relitive peace, but cease fires....may even last a few years,but the story always ends the same way....tears,and i fear the cycle will continue for many more generations to come....

 

[ren0312]

Israeli Soliders are continuing there efforts to destroy Hezbollah
increasing the number of airstrikes within the last 48hrs. Israeli special forces and ground troops are active in "search n destroy" missions going further deep into Lebanon.Israel dropped leaflets, warning any civilians remaining in southern Lebanon to leave immediately

The lebanon Prime Minister Fouad Siniora condemns Hezbollah for sparking the incident but also attacked Israel for what it use of "excessive" force.
Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz has warned that Israel is prepared to launch a full-scale ground operation if necessary, saying "we have no intention of conquering Lebanon but... we will do it without thinking twice."
Lebanese Defence Minister Elias Murr says the country's army will go into battle if Israel invades Lebanon

( A UN Observation Post on the border was hit by arty or some kind mortar)

If Israel were to launch a full ground operation or "invasion" so to speak
Could the lebanese actually put up a fight?

How could possible operations be carried out?

I would be interested in what you all have to say about topic as i have very little knowledge regarding the capabilities of lebanon and warefare of the region

If there is one thing that I find quite weird about the Israeli left, is that they don't seem to act like liberals in other parts of the West at all, they are far more hawkish I think.

 

[merocaine]

Hezbullah in a Ground War

I've been checking out various Hezbullah videos online to see if I could figure out what kind of real capiblites they have, I was under the impression that they were dudes in track suits armed with AK 47's and RPG's. But they look pretty professional. Found this on youtube.com. I'm not sure if its the real deal or just a training exercise (judging from the date I think the Israelies have just pulled out of the positions in the South Leb).
I was wondering if anyone here has served with the IDF and if they could shed any light on Hezbullah training and Tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShqPIXQhE58&mode=related&search=hizbollah

 

[spyware]

uly 21, 2006 -- INSIDE ISRAEL JERUSALEM - What the Israeli military has learned since the Lebanese border war began nine days ago is that Hezbollah managed to secretly build a network of underground tunnels and bunkers to house a vast artillery arsenal.

In the six years since Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon, it has learned that Hezbollah was collecting a huge number of Katyusha rockets and Iranian-made missiles shipped from Syria.

But the drone planes and electronic intelligence didn't reveal what was going on underground.

To go after those fortified bunkers, Israel has begun sending special teams.

One team paid the price yesterday when it ended up in a firefight with Hezbollah in the Lebanese town of Marun a-Ras. Four Israelis were reported killed.

http://www.nypost.com/commentary/baring_fiends_buried_secrets_commentary_uri_dan.htm

 

[spyware]

i hope this will answer your question merocaine..

Hezbollah's strategy appears to be threefold. First, force Israel into costly attacks against prepared fortifications. Second, draw Israeli troops as deeply into Lebanon as possible, forcing them to fight on extended supply lines. Third, move into an Iraqi-style insurgency from which Israel -- out of fear of a resumption of rocket attacks -- cannot withdraw, but which the Israelis also cannot endure because of extended long-term casualties. This appears to have been a carefully planned strategy, built around a threat to Israeli cities that Israel can't afford. The war has begun at Hezbollah's time and choosing...

Hezbollah has implemented its strategy by turning southern Lebanon into a military stronghold, consisting of well-designed bunkers that serve both as fire bases and launch facilities for rockets. The militants appear to be armed with anti-tank weapons and probably anti-aircraft weapons, some of which appear to be of American origin, raising the question of how they were acquired. Hezbollah wants to draw Israel into protracted fighting in this area in order to inflict maximum casualties and to change the psychological equation for both military and political reasons...

Israel is caught between three strategic imperatives. First, it must end the threat to Israeli cities, which must involve the destruction of Hezbollah's launch capabilities south of the Litani River. Second, it must try to destroy Hezbollah's infrastructure, which means it must move into the Bekaa Valley and as far as the southern suburbs of Beirut. Third, it must do so in such a way that it is not dragged into a long-term, unsustainable occupation against a capable insurgency....

Simply occupying the border-Litani area will not achieve any of Israel's strategic goals. Hezbollah still would be able to use rockets against Israel. And even if, for Hezbollah, this area is lost, its capabilities in the Bekaa Valley and southern Beirut will remain intact. Therefore, a battle that focuses solely on the south is not an option for Israel, unless the Israelis feel a defeat here will sap Hezbollah's will to resist. We doubt this to be the case...

An extended engagement in southern Lebanon is the least likely path, in our opinion. More likely -- and this is a guess -- is a five-part strategy:

1. Insert airmobile and airborne forces north of the Litani to seal the rear of Hezbollah forces in southern Lebanon. Apply air power and engineering forces to reduce the fortifications, and infantry to attack forces not in fortified positions. Bottle them up, and systematically reduce the force with limited exposure to the attackers.

2. Secure roads along the eastern flank for an armored thrust deep into the Bekaa Valley to engage the main Hezbollah force and infrastructure there. This would involve a move from Qiryat Shimona north into the Bekaa, bypassing the Litani to the west, and would probably require sending airmobile and special forces to secure the high ground. It also would leave the right flank exposed to Syria.

3. Use air power and special forces to undermine Hezbollah capabilities in the southern Beirut area. The Israelis would consider a move into this area after roads through southern Lebanon are cleared and Bekaa relatively secured, moving into the area, only if absolutely necessary, on two axes of attack.

4. Having defeated Hezbollah in detail, withdraw under a political settlement shifting defense responsibility to the Lebanese government.

5. Do all of this while the United States is still able to provide top cover against diplomatic initiatives that will create an increasingly difficult international environment.

from defensetech..

 

[arkhan]

do they have manpads

it seems israel jets have lebanon sky on their own. do anybody know if hezbollah or lebanon army have manpads or AAA ?

 

[rajupaki]

I dont think that Leonan has any AAA or SAMS IN a considerable amount, unless it came from any other source. We saw Israeli fighters flying over Beruit without any resistance from ground. I think it clearly proves it.

 

[Mr Waka]

I can understand what you mean there oldfaithfull, it's quite sad really.
So far 330 lebanon civilians have been killed due to this incident.
The French military is about to execute an "Evacuation" mission to help french lebanonese escape this terror. Hezbollah seems to be much more than just a bunch of angry muslim insurgents, they're extremly well organised, trained and under a reasonable command, i might suspect that they are aquiring all of these arms - rockets missiles small arms etc through Syria being the Third man in arms deals. I'd go as far as saying that we haven't even begun to imagine what kind of dodgy dealings are happening as we speak.
Thankyou very much for the avaition fuel America. I think that the U.S.A has something to gain from this little fiasco otherwise wouldn't they have by now tried to settle things down by now?
The area where all of these tunnels and rocket bunkers seem to be situated around a fairly small area.
The warning leaflets dropped over southern Lebanon warning residents to immediately evacuate an area approximately 32km (20 miles) wide.

Does Israel actually have the resources to carry out and sustain such an operation if they were to invade and occupy southern and possibly the Whole of Lebanon.

I mean if they were to take southern Lebanon sure Hezabollah would still be around and making themselves heard but being closer to fight wouldn't that be a seriously good advantage for Israel to unfold there plans for the region?

 

[Mr Waka]

Does Lebanon have any allies that they could help them if push came to shove and Israel decided to occupy part of or Lebanon it'self?

 

[zoolander]

Its like David vs. Galloth except this time the jews are galloth and arabs are david.

Isreal got total dominence in all fields and unlike the united states they are very good in urban combat and also have a very good intelligence network.

Lebonon is still wounded from its long civil war. I mean i woundn't be surprised if they break up into different factions.

Does lebonon even have a navy of air force?

Whatever the case Isreal is better. Its air force is state of the art. Its tanks are better than the old russian things lebonon calls a tank. Isreal's navy is very high tech. Harpoons, Barak, missiles are relli good

 

[old faithful]

all of the state of the art F15I,s and F16I,s,MerkavaIVs,and special forces are not going to help you against a Region that feels the world is against it. Disguntled,and grieving locals are not too hard to recruit,esspessially when they have nothing left....worth living for,this is gonna be another Iraq,Afganistan,Vietnam,Somalia...where does the list stop? New tactics need to be devised to fight terror.Conventional warfare does not work.

 

[andrei]

Seems that Israel is massing four divisions to invade Lebanon. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291966928&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull.

According to the Israeli press, all the bombardment of Hezbollah positions and lebanese infrastructure does not compensate the psychological/strategic advantage gained by the Hezbollah bombing daily Israeli cities. Long range MRLS and Katyushas falling on israeli cities every day are an asset for the Hezbollah and for the first time since 1973,Israeli cities are threatened directly. Israeli politicians had not foreseen this and may have to resort to invade Lebanon to prove that they are not " weak ". Israeli public opinion is also very upbeat about the war, while the whole world accuses Israel of bombing the civilian population in Lebanon, even israeli moderate press considers that " israeli have been to kind... and too tolerant ".
The lebanese army will also probably fight against the Israeli these times. They will get crushed probably but you will have another area of anarchy like in Irak with Hezbollah, volunteers and civil resistance everywhere.
Unless Israel kills all the arabs in Lebanon I don't see any military solution to this even on the long run. The israeli action will create tens of thousands of enraged resistants. I believe iranians will still send missiles and technicians in Lebanon and the whole war will be very bloody for both sides.
The only long term solution is political, peace in the region, peace in Palestine, land for peace and so forth and no one seems to be ready for making compromises now.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

consisting of well-designed bunkers that serve both as fire bases and launch facilities for rockets.

What I don't understand is why the Israeli aren't using counter-battery radar to retaliate with MLRS, providing that Hezbullah are using fixed launch sites, as defensetech suggest.

And moreover, why Israel has abandonned the THEL research, while the prototype was working pretty good?

all the bombardment of Hezbollah positions and lebanese infrastructure does not compensate the psychological/strategic advantage gained by the Hezbollah bombing daily Israeli cities.

Israel must so use terrific weapons too. Bombarding with iron bombs and bombarding with Napalm bombs or Fuel-Air Explosive and thermobaric weapon don't produce the same effect. The laters cause a terrific psychological effect, even for the Hezbullah.

 

[swerve]

Whatever the case Isreal is better. Its air force is state of the art. Its tanks are better than the old russian things lebonon calls a tank.

Like Lebanons M48s? :

 

[Waylander]

Some artillery guys told me that it is not that easy to fix the postition of one lonely round. Only real modern systems are able to pinpoint them but another problem is that these rockets seem to fly very low.
Despite the fact that they might fire these rockets by using radio comtrols.

 

[merocaine]

i hope this will answer your question merocaine..

Thanks Spyware, that seems like a pretty comprehensive straegy for the total destruction of Hezbullah. But that could take months, even if properly implemented, and even then Hezbullah could adapt to the situation, like the over used vietnam analogy, syria, sitting next door is a ready made rest and reequip area. Isreal will be forced to move deeper and deeper into Lebanon to eleminate safe havens. Syria and Iran would'ent have to intervene directly Israel would be bleed slowly until they pulled out. And having achived what? the temp knocking back of Hezbullah and the destuction of a nascent democractic state next door.
I believe Israel have allowed themselfs to be sucked in, now we will see how long it takes to extract.
The problem is that Hezbullah arent some Iranian proxy army, if that was the case support for them would collapes pretty quickly. They are the shia population in Lebanon, which are the majoraty at the end of the day.
A victory in Lebonan is already out of grasp, it was the day the IDF hit the airport.

 

[Mr Brown]

Lebanese Navy has only a few small patrol craft plus one larger landing craft. AF has no longer has combat aircraft having sold Mirage IIIs to Pakistan and Hunters on war bird market. Has a few Hueys donated by US, maybe some Bulldog trainers and Alouette III helos still flying. Hizbollah may have a few SA-7 or SA-14, but Lebanese army has no air defence weapons, beyond heavy machine guns. But judging by the way that IDF is using Apaches over built up areas they feel there is no AD threat at all.

The only friend close enough to provide direct support to Lebanon and/or Hizbollah is Syria, whose air force would seem to be largely a paper force, with much of the most potent aircraft, eg Mig-29 and Su-24 suffering from lack of spares, and pilots with limited flying hours, about 30 a year I believe. Though may have reasonable ground based AD, would not want to put it up against a very well equipped and trained IDF/AF.