Israel to acquire two more German submarines

P.A.F

New Member
Israel to acquire two more German submarines

Navy already operates three similar submarines, capable of launching cruise missiles with nuclear warheads.
Maariv International


Germany has agreed to sell Israel another two Dolphin-class submarines, They will join the three Dolphin –class submarines already operated by the Israeli navy, making Israel one of the premier maritime powers in the Arabian Sea.

The new pair of submarines, like the first three, will be built at the Kiel-based Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG, the world’s biggest builder of diesel submarines. The new boats are more advanced in that they will able to stay submerged for longer than the first Dolphins. The reported cost for the two craft is
$700 million.

Berlin has overcome its reluctance to the craft being fitted with nuclear cruise missiles, in the interests of a newly adopted more aggressive defense exports policy, and out of understanding that the EU’s attempts to halt Iran’s nuclear weapons program is unlikely to succeed.

Israel already has a major presence in the area. It has a naval and air base at Dahlak, a small island owned by Eritrea just outside the strategic Bab el Mandeb straits, where the Red Sea enters the Arabian Sea. At least one of its three Dolphin submarines is always on patrol in the Arabian Sea.

In May 2000 Israel is reported to have secretly carried out its first test launches from two German-built Dolphin-class submarines of cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. According to foreign military and intelligence sources, the missiles launched from vessels off Sri Lanka in the Indian Ocean are said to have hit a target at a range of about 1,500 kilometers. The missiles reportedly carry a 200kg nuclear warhead containing 6kg of plutonium.

Several countries have, or plan to have a powerful and permanent naval presence in the Arabian Sea. The US and British navies maintain a constant presence in the area, from its staging point at the British naval base of Diego Garcia, in the middle of the Arabian Sea.

India, the region’s largest naval power (and the only country apart from the US and UK to operate aircraft carriers), maintains a major naval presence, including submarines and surface craft. Pakistan also has a constant submarine patrol. Although most of its naval forces are aged and obsolete, it recently purchased three France has constructed three Agosta-class subs from France, and is mulling buying two more. These are primarily interceptors, for use against surface ships and other subs, and cannot be used as platforms for cruise or ballistic missiles.

Indian subs of British-Russian manufacture sail keel to keel with Israel subs made in Germany, against Pakistani vessels made in France and Iranian subs made in China.

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:roll
 

turin

New Member
Berlin has overcome its reluctance to the craft being fitted with nuclear cruise missiles, in the interests of a newly adopted more aggressive defense exports policy, and out of understanding that the EU’s attempts to halt Iran’s nuclear weapons program is unlikely to succeed.
In my perception this had not so much to do with a theoretical nuclear capability of the Dolphins but with the payment options and Israels wish for at least partial german funding which was and remains decidedly refused by the german government. Now that this issue seems to be resolved (US-funding maybe?) the procurement may continue. Good news for HDW anyway! If they are able to stay submerged for a longer period that may indicate employment of AIP comparable to type 212/214.
 

adsH

New Member
the Frech Augusta can be modified to launch Cruise missiles. it launches the exorcist. the Pakistanis have the capability to modify there platforms but the problem is that they don't have a Cruise missile in there inventory capable of being fired from a sub. At the moment Pak navy is completing there last Sub the last of the three, and is designing the next version, that would be built, the french origin Al khalid class has AIP too, and is uptodate so i don't get it, why is the article bent on degrading the Sub. Last time i had heard Pak navy was upgrading its entire fleet of Augustas(which it already operates). I think that was one of the reason why pak navy chose the Augusta 90b


Islamabad, Oct 18, IRNA -- Pakistan-made submarine Augusta 90b "Sa`ad
is likely to be equipped with weapons soon, a local news agency
reported.
The submarine successfully completed primary dive last month, INP
reported Saturday.
Augusta 90B submarine has been built in Pakistan and named after
companion of Prophet Sa`ad. In p-dive a submarine is taken to its
maximum depth according to the design and its structure.
"Saad was designed to go beneath the water at 365 meters, all the
systems and equipment work properly and no problem has been found,"
the agency quoted well-place source as saying.
According to reports, Sa`ad can be equipped with torpedoes and
latest missiles. It can carry in singular mission 12 exorcist missiles
and 24 torpedoes, which make it advanced and highly lethal.
"Saad can remain under water for 40 days without coming on
surface. This submarine will also be equipped with the latest Air
Independent Propulsion System soon," INP added.
After installation of Air Independent Propulsion System, Sa`ad
will be able to remain under water for two months," the sources
maintained.
Augusta submarine project was signed during Benazir Bhutto`s
government under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement worth $1
billion with France.
SH/TSH/211
End
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/10/mil-031018-irna01.htm
Sauids are interested in purchasing the Augusta's too but the Al-Khlid versions produced by Pakistanis. so the Augustas might end up against the Dolphines in Israeli Navy's inventory.

Most of my discussion will focus on the idea of sub-launched nuclear missiles. A little on the subs.


The authority cited (Howard Bloom) seems to be making some peculiar assertions in this particular case. He specifically speaks of the Khalid (Augusta 90B) class being equipped with Harpoon SLAM's (Standoff Land Attack Missiles). ("Each Agosta 90B is able to carry sixteen Harpoon Stand-Off Land Attack cruise missiles"). This is true in the sense that my SUV is able to carry one.


Since these are designed to be fired (and guided, though GPS and inertial guidance also available) by carrier based USN assets, this seems an improbable weapon for the Khalid.


Moreover, the Khalid is designed to carry the Excet. I suppose you could have it carry the SLAM, but why, when the French will happily sell you Exocets by the baker's dozen?


Others above have suggested it's indeed the Exocet -- specifically the Exocet SM39. If I'm not mistaken that's got a 165 kg warhead, and a range of roughly 50km. (Under 70km, certainly, as IceCold suggests above).


Off-hand, I've no idea what the weight of Pakistan's nuclear warheads are, but we can make an educated guess.


If we look at France as an example, they started out with 1500kg devices in the early 60's and progressed by the mid-80's to sub 200kg warheads according to NuclearWeaponsArchive.Org.


Of course, the real question is where does Pakistan sit on this development continuum? It seems plausible, even likely, that they've had Chinese technical assistance in modernizing and miniaturizing nuclear warhead designs.


Turning the question around: what missiles is Pakistan focusing on? (primary source again NWA.org) The Ghauri-1 and Ghauri-2 are nuclear capable (North Korean derived scud derivatives), and can carry warheads of ca. 700 kg (possibly as low as 500 would be the intent in the case of the -2). In addition the Washington Post quoted a CIA draft as saying that Pakistan had probably finished developing nuclear warheads for Chinese supplied M-11 missiles. The M-11 carries a warhead of 500-800 kg.


So we've reasonably good evidence that Pakistan may well be down to about 500kg nuclear warheads. To be down at the level of sub 200kg (sized for an Exocet), they'd have to be at the level of French warhead technology 19 years ago.


Are they?


Probably not.


Caveat: I'm certainly not an intelligence professional, and while I've an interest in Naval Weapons Systems, my knowledge on the nuclear front is decidedly limited, and out of date.


On the sub itself, I believe it's got a 12000km operational range. If it were on a suicide mission, or had refueling in UK/Europe/Japan it could possibly manage a nuclear strike against the US coast, but it seems unlikely. And certainly alarms would be raised if a Pakistan sub turned up to refuel in the UK.


French subs are not historically noted for their silence. This is basically a 70's era French hull with more advanced fire control, weapons, and propulsion. I'm not familiar with the new Mesma AIP (air independent propulsion) system, but it probably only triples the submerged operating endurance of the boat.


It would be very interesting to know more about the screw design, but I suspect this is not a "stealth" sub as Professor Bloom seems to suggest.


I suspect this is not an immediate concern, but it is a looming one for the next 15+ years. I believe that both the stealth capabilities of this sub and the idea of arming exocets (or even Harpoons) with indigenous Pakistani nuclear warheads are exaggerated and alarmist over the next decade at least.


Holmwood. http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/09/another_disturb.php
although Mr.holmeoods comments are quiet rudimentary in respect to the specific design of the new Augusta90b class(which has a stealthier hull design, the screw design would be classified i'd imagine ), i would say he makes some really good points. the Pakistnais have recently developed Plutonium warheads which are well within the weight range that he describes as being sea launchable on a excocets. and anything with a 21-inch tube (533mm) is capable of launching a cruise missile with a relatively easily installed fire control package. i would assume Pakistanis are capable of developing and deploying such a system. the Israeli's have the committed poppy i think its the turbo poppy, i was amazed at the size of the poppey its huge to say the least. is anyone aware of the size of a Dolphin class.
 

highsea

New Member
adsH said:
... i was amazed at the size of the poppey its huge to say the least. is anyone aware of the size of a Dolphin class.
They are not particularly large, 57 meters long and 1900 tons submerged. They have (6) 533mm tubes and (4) 650mm tubes for the Popeyes. They have a crew compliment of about 30 men.
 

Salman78

New Member
Who the hell wrote this article. Its full of BS. India is NOT the only country apart from US and UK to operate a carrier. what about Russia, France, Itlay, Brazil, Indonesia among others ????
India purchases Agosta's and plans to buy more ? you gotta be kidding me rite ???
Israeli subs firing a 1500 km missile with nuclear warhead???
So there are submarines that are called "interceptors"... that is just sooo LAME

Very poor piece of information. It shouldnt have been posted in the first place.
 
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Django

New Member
highsea said:
They are not particularly large, 57 meters long and 1900 tons submerged. They have (6) 533mm tubes and (4) 650mm tubes for the Popeyes. They have a crew compliment of about 30 men.
I saw the bow section laid down at HDW. The dolphin has 10 tubes 533mm and no 650mm.
 

highsea

New Member
Welcome to DT Django.

I have heard conflicting reports on this. Some said 6 533's, some said 10, some said 6+4. Lol. Anyway, so these will have 10 533mm tubes then, the one you saw was destined for Israel?

Incidentally, I think the Popeye can launch from a 533 tube anyway, I was wrong about that too. Guess I was 0 for 2 on that one, better stick to AC. ;)

Cheers.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting article, in terms of the basic facts. Obviously Israel does not need a large navy, as most conceivable threats are land-based. Plus their airforce could take care of any Egyptian naval units - which would never happen anyway.

However, as Salman pointed out, it is riddled with inaccuracies. Plus I don't see what possible use the Israelis could have for sub-launched nukes (even if we assume they have any). Even if we assume they have them, if any Arab or Muslim nation in the area was mysteriously attacked, it would be rather obvious who launched it.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
I am surprised how many errors there were in the globalsecurity article on the Augusta 90b that Pakistan has.

"It can carry in singular mission 12 exorcist missiles
and 24 torpedoes, which make it advanced and highly lethal."

36 weapons in a loadout, lol. That beats all the SSN except the Seawolf, and is double the usual number carried in a SSK.

"Saad can remain under water for 40 days without coming on
surface. This submarine will also be equipped with the latest Air
Independent Propulsion System soon," INP added.

40 days prior to AIP, wow, quite a feat.

"After installation of Air Independent Propulsion System, Sa`ad
will be able to remain under water for two months," the sources
maintained."

I heard that MESMA is good for about 3 times normal underwater endurance, so maximum of about 2 weeks, not 2 months.
Goes to show, take what you read in the media as ficton until cross checked. In this case english seemed to not be the writers dominant language.

Exerts from http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/

"The MESMA air-independent propulsion system, being fitted to the Agosta 90B submarines for Pakistan, allows the submarine to remain submerged three times longer. The Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles. The Agosta 90B is equipped with the torpedo tube launched MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale) Exocet SM39 missile. "
Range10,000 nm
Autonomy68 days
Autonomy is the time the sub can spend at sea, 68 days is very good, but it is not the time it can spend submerged, thats more likely to be about 4 days at 3-4 knots until AIP is installed.

There are lots of better written articles about the Agosta (you will fine little if you use Augusta 90b) using www.google.com It has been thoroughly upgraded from the earlier Agosta 70 and does appear to be a excellent long range platform. (my humble opinion)
 
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