long live usa
New Member
basically the title is the qeastion
Is naval cannon/artilery dead?
- Thread starter long live usa
- Start date
Going by new 155mm Naval cannon development, together with long range smart munitions I would have to say no, not yet.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Naval guns are very useful as part of a layered defense against fast surface skimmers and boghammers.
Standards (and perhaps ESSM) and then a 76mm Super Rapid or a 57mm Bofors Mk3 or a 35mm Millenium gun.
Cheers
Standards (and perhaps ESSM) and then a 76mm Super Rapid or a 57mm Bofors Mk3 or a 35mm Millenium gun.
Cheers
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Just as an addon to your comments. Light, medium and heavy guns certainly seem to have a place in the US navy, both in existing ships and planned designs.Grand Danois said:Naval guns are very useful as part of a layered defense against fast surface skimmers and boghammers.
Standards (and perhaps ESSM) and then a 76mm Super Rapid or a 57mm Bofors Mk3 or a 35mm Millenium gun.
Cheers
The Canadians have been avid fans of the maritime 57mm for some decades now I think, looks like the US is catching the same bug.
http://www.deagel.com/news2/?p=ns000131ot
"Mk 110 Naval Gun Selected as DD(X) Close-In Gun System Monday, October 25, 2004 Weaponry 57mm Mk3AGSCG(X)DD(X)Mk 110 Mod 0Mk 15 Phalanx Block 0Mk 57WMSL 750 Country SwedenUnited States of America Corporations RaytheonUnited Defense The United States Navy has approved United Defense 57mm Mk 110 naval gun as the Close-In Gun System (CIGS) for the DD(X) destroyer baseline design. The Mk 110 selection comes after Raytheon and United Defense conducted an exhaustive study recommending the 57mm gun solution as the best solution...." http://www.uniteddefense.com/pr/pr_20041025.htm
"United Defense 57-mm Naval Gun Selected for Use Aboard U.S. Navy DD(X) Destroyer Contact: Jeff Van Keuren United Defense, Public Affairs (763) 572-7615 [email protected] Doug Coffey, Media United Defense [email protected] (703) 312-6121 MINNEAPOLIS, MN - October 25, 2004 - United Defense Industries, Inc. (NYSE:UDI) announced today that the U.S. Navy has approved the 57-mm Mk 110 Naval Gun as the Close-In Gun System (CIGS) for the baseline design of the new DD(X) Destroyer program...."
Google throws up many links if you use the search terms 'ddx' and '155mm'. As it also does if you search using 'LCS' and '35mm'
A point worth noting, is that for each of these systems, there are also new types of 'smart' ammunition developed or under development.
The 155mm AGS has the Excalibur round, the 57mm has the 3P, the 35mm has AHEAD. I also believe that the Italians are developing some form of guided round for the 76mm.
(a quick google found http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MCG.html - not sure how accurate all that stuff is). Plus the current standard 127mm also has a smart round under development.
So I think the days of (massed) bombardments with dumb rounds is limited. Of course poorer navies will always have to make do with what they can afford.
But a future course has been set.
rb
and to take this another generation into the future, the DDG-1000s are being developed to incorporate electric drive systems leaving a surplus of power for energy weapons, Close-in-gun systems will be replaced with particle or chemical lasers, the AGS will be replaced with the EM-railgun with sabot rounds with much more speed, range and destructive power. Naval guns won't be around forever, energy weapons are the wave of the future. That's the best feature of the Zumwalt series of destroyers and all future surface combatants will be based on these technologies.rossfrb_1 said:
meatball88
New Member
This would depend on what you intend to do with it. For example, it would be hilarious if some captain popped a missile over the bow of another ship instead of using the gun.
rebellious
New Member
the new zealand navy has naval artillery and basically no missiles. the ships are so pathetic.
contedicavour
New Member
Yep Italy is developing guided ammunition for both 76mm and 127mm guns. Programmes are known as Vulcano and Davide-Strales. Basically this helps to extend the range of 127-mm ammunition to 90 km and can provide accurate targeting, transforming the ammunition into something very, very close to a guided bomb such as a Paveway.rossfrb_1 said:
cheers
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Gw2
Naval Artillery still has its uses, I think it was HMAS Anzac that uses it main 127mm in GW2 despite all assets arounds, Fire Support was called using the gun. Sure that will improve with the future systems but the basic use of being able to call on offshore weapon to lay down fire in a much heavier way than you can with ship launched missiles, and for much cheaper at the moment limter is range eg danger of shallow water and coastal batteries but that will improve with the planned 155mm system with and 70 odd mile range.
Naval Artillery still has its uses, I think it was HMAS Anzac that uses it main 127mm in GW2 despite all assets arounds, Fire Support was called using the gun. Sure that will improve with the future systems but the basic use of being able to call on offshore weapon to lay down fire in a much heavier way than you can with ship launched missiles, and for much cheaper at the moment limter is range eg danger of shallow water and coastal batteries but that will improve with the planned 155mm system with and 70 odd mile range.
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Pursuit Curve
New Member
I believe that a layered, multi purpose mix of gun/missile is the best approach.
Not all targets warrent a smart munition, and some targets are dealt with adequately with the good old, unjammable, not easily intercepted shell.
Thus, Naval platforms are very flexible, keeping in mind the obvious restrictions in Littoral operations, mines etc.
Keep in mind one example of the short commings in missile defense and lack of gun power, The RN when they were close in to the shore supporting the Falklands Amphibious ops, the Terrain masked the radar effectiveness of the Sea Dart systems, and the lack of Light and medium guns on the RN ships was a near disaster for those ships when the Argentinian Naval and Air Force aircraft attacked.
Layered Systems, not a all in one system is the answer in my humble opinion.
Not all targets warrent a smart munition, and some targets are dealt with adequately with the good old, unjammable, not easily intercepted shell.
Thus, Naval platforms are very flexible, keeping in mind the obvious restrictions in Littoral operations, mines etc.
Keep in mind one example of the short commings in missile defense and lack of gun power, The RN when they were close in to the shore supporting the Falklands Amphibious ops, the Terrain masked the radar effectiveness of the Sea Dart systems, and the lack of Light and medium guns on the RN ships was a near disaster for those ships when the Argentinian Naval and Air Force aircraft attacked.
Layered Systems, not a all in one system is the answer in my humble opinion.
contedicavour
New Member
How many years (or decades) the industry will need before supplying such systems ? For a long, long time it will still be up to Phalanx, RAM, Goalkeeper, Mistral, Kashtan, Dardo, Vulcano/Strales systems to kill incoming missiles.Big-E said:
Besides, to hit coastal targets I still believe long-range artillery with guided ammunition will be the most cost-effective solution. Unless you can afford cruise missiles in sufficient quantity. Even the USN doesn't want to waste Tomahawks and will make good use of 127/62 guns.
cheers
contedicavour said:
As the Zumwalts evolve to their first weapons upgrade will probably be the first gen of Point-Defense-Lasers on surface combatants. After it is a proven system other navies will transition to it as well, I'd give it another 15 yrs before PDLs become standard replacement for close-in-defense. I don't consider that too terribly long a wait.
To hit coastal targets with cost effective munitions, AGS is not the long term answer. Those smart rds aren't exactly cheap. The cheapest, quickest and most deadly gun system will be the EM railgun. You can fire a sabot round with 20X the kenetic energy of AGS with greater range for pennies on the AGS dollar. Thats your answer for cheap shore bombardment, not AGS or TLAMs. Expect to see EM-guns within twenty years as standard gun and short range missile replacements. As the power/range of the railgun increases you can kiss cruise missiles good-bye to.
So what you are saying is the gun of the future will rely soley on ballistics. The problem I see with this is platform stability in a seaway. Three dimensional movement would appear to increase errors in long range shots regardless of the energy the system can produce. If you don't care about collateral damage and are willing to splatter and area I guess this is not an issue.Big-E said:
From what I can see AGS will provide range and accuracy as well as the ability to deluge rounds into an area. If an EM gun could fire a guided round as well it would seem better but I am not sure if the round could withsatnd the forces involved.