Is Going The Royal Navy To Be Scrapped ?

[overlander]

i have read in the last editorial of richard beedall www.beedall.com that after so many cuts and cuts in the royal navy some people is thinking that in the medium future this force will be reduced to just a coastal force leaving only a few frigates, after seeing what is happening reducing submarines, escorts, retirement of sea harriers, delays in new projects etc for me it is not impossible if things follow this way but the problem is that the conservative opposition has the same ideas as the labour government.

 

[mark22w]

In the short term it doesn’t look great however with the exception of the USN the current RN has the most capable amphibious assets (1 x LPH, 2 x LPD, 4 LSD, & 6 Strategic Ro-Ro) and advanced T45 air defence destroyers coming on stream. Yes numbers are reduced but the Sampson and PAAMS combination is a good one.

Add two new carriers at 60,000 tons plus, the Astute class SSNs and the future force will indeed be smaller but significantly more capable than today.

In my experience defence isn’t high on the agenda for either party (sorry, any of the major parties) however for the first time I believe there is a medium to long term strategy for the RN fleet and by taking the hit today in terms of cuts it should get better... IMHO of course.

I for one hope you haven’t got it right but an interesting question.

 

[Rich]

A sad day. And not just for England but also her allies. Enland is a major player in several alliances and when she allows her navy to weaken so too do those alliances weaken.

 

[EthanXH58]

With the acception of the British Nuclear attack submarines, the British Surface fleet at the moment is extremely week. This will change with the arrival of the Type-45 destroyers, however only 6 destroyers are not sufficent to be classified as a world class navy.

At the moment it seems that the French Navy is the most powerful navy in Europe. It is truly a sad state of affair for the British navy.

 

[overlander]

At the moment it seems that the French Navy is the most powerful navy in Europe. It is truly a sad state of affair for the British navy.

i totally agree, by now the french navy it,s the most powerful in europe with his new construction program very well defined and fundings aproved for new vesels.

only in the amphibiousrole the royal navy will be a more than respectable force with 2 lpd 4 lsd and the preservation of the lsl sir bedivedere untilo at least 2011.

concerning to escorts the decline is evident, by now only 6 t 45 are being built, the 4 remaing t 22 frigates will be withdrawal in maximum 8-9 years and at the moment no replacements have been aproved.

as for submarines the delays in astute class and the problems in trafalgar class means that the submarine force will be reduced too.

after this my opinion about the how will be composed the royal navy in around 2015-2020 will be as follows.

1 perhaps 2 aircraft carriers
20 escorts as a maximum
1 lph
2 lpd
4 lsd
8 auxiliary vessels, perhaps 2 fort class, 5 oilers and perhaps 1 aviation training ship ??
naval aviation . ??? i don,t know it the jsf they will get will be property of the raf or shared with it ,so the fleet air arm will only be composed by helicopters.

submarine force . 4- astute class and 3 modernized trafalgar as a maximum.

all this if the british government doesn,t decide another review that in britain means more cuts in britain some people call the british mod MINISTRY OF CUTS.

here are the statistics of the heavy decline of the royal navy from the falklands conflict to 2006
1982
2 carriers. hermes and invincible
around 60 escorts
2 lpd
6 lsl sir class
14 oilers, 4 supply vessels.
naval aviation 25 sea harriers and 200 armed helicopters, . sea king, linx, wasp, wessex etc.
submarine force. around 18 conventional porpoise and oberon classes and 7 nuclear valiant and swiftsure class.

with all this and seeing the unclear future is evident that the royal navy is by far the navy wich has been more reduced in these 24 years, if we recognize that for british politicians the armed forces are in the bottom of priorities it,s easy to see the difficult future not only for the RN but also for the raf and army wich have been heavily reduced too from 1982 , sad and dangerous future for the british armed forces in my opinion.

 

[Sea Toby]

Everyone enjoyed a peace dividend after the Cold War during the 1990s, including the United States. During the 1990s the American navy decommissioned old LSDs, LSTs, FFs, DDGs, CGs, CGNs, SSNs, SSBNs, and CVs. The list is long, over 200 ships. Other than a few submarines, 28 Ticendergoa class cruisers, and a score of 20+ Arleigh Burkes, not much was constructed for the US Navy during the 1990s.I beg to differ, but I think the US Navy got hurt worst.

 

[mark22w]

i totally agree, by now the french navy it,s the most powerful in europe with his new construction program very well defined and fundings aproved for new vesels.

only in the amphibiousrole the royal navy will be a more than respectable force with 2 lpd 4 lsd and the preservation of the lsl sir bedivedere untilo at least 2011.

concerning to escorts the decline is evident, by now only 6 t 45 are being built, the 4 remaing t 22 frigates will be withdrawal in maximum 8-9 years and at the moment no replacements have been aproved.

Interesting analysis. For my money I think the future RN and French Navy (Marine Nationale) are closer in capability than these figures suggest.

In terms of carrier power both nations should see two platforms with similar capability, the French CDG being marginally smaller.

Air defence i think favours the RN with plans for between 6 and 8 T45s with SAMPSON & PAAMS (commitment to 8 though I accept no guarantee) and the French Navy between 4 and 6 Horizon PAAMS frigates. The EMPAR radar is not as capable as SAMPSON however the French and Italian requirements are somewhat different to the UK.

I like the look of the (French) FREMM multipurpose frigates and the mix of 8 ASW and 9 Land Attack versions, and it’s good to see orders on the books. I see the RN taking a similar route and as posted elsewhere see up to 12 (?) to replace the 4 Type 22 and 13 Type 23 Frigates. Of note is the planned upgrade to 8 Type 23s with the £300m Sonar 2087 programme; interesting to speculate if 4 to 6 RN Land attack platforms it might favour France, of course depending on weapons and sensor package.

Let’s leave the nuclear armed SSBNs out of the equation. The RN plans for 8 SSNs and French Navy 6 SSNs. Again, weapons and sensor packages will differ but both are capable of land attack and Special Forces insertion.

Amphibious and support vessels have been covered already.

All somewhat academic of course as the two nations are more likely to work together than on apposing sides. The key point for me is the need to ensure the two can work together and it’s satisfying to see the carrier groups of both nations operating with the others escorts in attendance.

Tough times for both the RN and the Marine Nationale but both seem intent on retaining a balanced fleet, albeit with smaller numbers. The wild card in my mind is the need to replace Trident in the UK and the impact this may have…

 

[Sea Dog]

At the moment it seems that the French Navy is the most powerful navy in Europe

I totally.....DISAGREE!!!

Even with the current lack of air assets, the RN is still way more capable than the French. Apart from the SSBN units, the French Navy is much ado about nothing.

--Charles De Gaulle not only cost almost as much as two NIMITZ, but it barely gets enough speed to safely launch the few a/c that it carries. And it's very very cramped. Having only 2 E-2's prevents round the clock coverage over the BG-safe to assume that 1 of the fleet of 3 will be back at the base for maintenance/trng so only 2 will be available on board.

--The whole French Navy has no credible AAW from its escorts. Zilch. Zip. Nada. The SM-1's on Cassard and Jean-Bart are just plain obsolete junk. The USN removed them from the FFG's 'cause they were not worth squat anymore. At least the RN can count on the USN to show up with the heavy fists of the AEGIS equipped units.

--The last two classes of escorts that France has built, the La Fayette class frigates and the Floreal class corvettes, completely lack ASW detection gear--no sonar, no towed fish, no towed array. Nothing. Utterly useless in an engagement against a sophisticated adversary. They're just glorified Coast Guard vessels.

--The SSN force is obsolete. Period. And even when the Rubis boats were new, they were easily outclassed by the RN sub force. The gap has since grown.

--Only now is the Phib force getting attention. France still has no specialized phib assault units like the RM, and must rely on regular army units that are not specialized in the amphibious assualt (the hardest of all ground combat specialties).

--No dedicated helo assault package. Ad hoc forces will only give you an ad hoc result.

So on and so forth.

No, the RN is still the best over there. And the RN is the #3 fleet in the World (After the USN and the JMSDF).

 

[EthanXH58]

With all due respect, Lafayette was the first true stealth warship to enter service with any Navy. It's successfull adoption by the Saudi Navy, Taiwanese Navy, French Navy and the Navy of Singapore is evident. Lafayette can be retrofitted with up to 32 PAAMS launch with either the Aster 15 or Aster 30 missiles. The French have 4 of these in service and then went ahead with the adoption of 4 Horizon class frigates which will be equipped with Aster 15/30 combo and will be in service by 2010. From 2010 onwards the 17 MMF frigates will begin entering service with the French Navy along with the six Barracude class submarines.

 

[mark22w]

I agree with EthanX58 we are not strictly comparing like for like

The ‘La Fayette’ and ‘Floreal’ class frigates (corvettes) were configured for and seem to work well showing the flag and maritime presence role in the Indian and Pacific oceans – they are not fleet units in the true sense and weren’t intended to be. I’m not sure the latest OPV(H) for the RN doesn’t reflect both nations have residual commitments best satisfied by second rate vessels.

I see the future French Navy developing balanced anti air, asw and land attack options and accept current anti air is left wanting. But then again the Type 42 destroyers the RN makes do with are questionable.

As to the French carrier (Charles de Gaulle) I think the decision for a somewhat larger and non nuclear option based on the CVF would be a good one.

IMHO there are many similarities with the UK and France in wishing to deploy a balanced fleet yet doing so with very limited funds, and governments that might cancel or curtail development at any time. I think the USN has a much higher profile and general level of acceptance domestically in the US – sadly it’s not the same the other side of the Atlantic…

 

[Supe]

I await announcement for the go ahead on the 2 x CVF's but I have a sneaking suspicion (I hope I'm wrong) that the proposal to build them will be dropped if matters with JSF aren't resolved. (Why are Brits dawdling on CVF announcement?) If the Brits opt out of JSF buy and alternatives prove too expensive/politically awkward, there could be a perception that the CVF's would no longer be required. Instead we might see the Brits opt for pocket carriers with limited aviation potential (UAV's/helicopters only) and amphibious capabilites.

 

[Sea Toby]

Why is it that everytime a new aircraft is under development the aircraft is having problems when none exist? The F-35 program is preceeding on time and so far on budget. The difficulty with the costs is mostly due to policy, i.e., how many will be purchased eventually, not the aircraft itself

And frankly, without a crystal ball, no one knows precisely how many will be ordered and built in the next 15-10 years, no one. Its been my experience with the five or ten year building plans, that the numbers are low in the first few years and the numbers are large in the last few years.

The F-16 program was expected to end several years ago, yet, the assembly line in Fort Worth is still cranking out F-16s. No one knows when the F-35 program will end either.

One thing is for certain though, many countries have expressed an interest in the F-35 program, much more than the F-22 program. Therefore, if any program suffers, it will be the F-22 even though the USAF would rather buy F-22s.

Previous history of the F-15 and the F-16 programs confirm this. Not many nations decided to purchase the F-15, many nations decided to build the F-16 instead, especially NATO nations. At one time the F-16 wasn't even in sight by the USAF.

 

[Sea Dog]

With all due respect, Lafayette was the first true stealth warship to enter service with any Navy. It's successfull adoption by the Saudi Navy, Taiwanese Navy, French Navy and the Navy of Singapore is evident. Lafayette can be retrofitted with up to 32 PAAMS launch with either the Aster 15 or Aster 30 missiles. The French have 4 of these in service and then went ahead with the adoption of 4 Horizon class frigates which will be equipped with Aster 15/30 combo and will be in service by 2010. From 2010 onwards the 17 MMF frigates will begin entering service with the French Navy along with the six Barracude class submarines.

LAFAYETTE = ZERO ASW CAPABILITY.

So the boys on the Lafayette Class can enjoy that pseudo "stealth" stuff all they want--there is only so much one can do by bending surfaces--'cause in the end the Lafayette will get a fish up their keister just as quickly as anyone else (well, probably much quicker 'cause they won't know there is a sub beneath until they're going down to hang with Davey Jones).

My dog probably can find a boat faster than one of those Lafayette's.

Don't fool yourself in thinking that quantity of sales to other countries equals excellence. If one were to assume that theory, then the line of bonehead countries trying to buy T-72's would go around the Earth 5 times.

p.s. I would not be surprised with a dramatic drop in orders from the Marine Nationale and with a delay in acquisitions.

 

[Sea Dog]

I agree with EthanX58 we are not strictly comparing like for like

The ‘La Fayette’ and ‘Floreal’ class frigates (corvettes) were configured for and seem to work well showing the flag and maritime presence role in the Indian and Pacific oceans – they are not fleet units in the true sense and weren’t intended to be. I’m not sure the latest OPV(H) for the RN doesn’t reflect both nations have residual commitments best satisfied by second rate vessels.

I see the future French Navy developing balanced anti air, asw and land attack options and accept current anti air is left wanting. But then again the Type 42 destroyers the RN makes do with are questionable.

As to the French carrier (Charles de Gaulle) I think the decision for a somewhat larger and non nuclear option based on the CVF would be a good one.

IMHO there are many similarities with the UK and France in wishing to deploy a balanced fleet yet doing so with very limited funds, and governments that might cancel or curtail development at any time. I think the USN has a much higher profile and general level of acceptance domestically in the US – sadly it’s not the same the other side of the Atlantic…

The Lafayette class were created as a side show for the promotion of the shipbuilding industry in France. If France wants to show the flag it could've built more Floreal's, but it chose to build the Lafayette to improve their exports opportunities. That it has done. Nevertheless the design of the Lafayette units does not cover up the fact that they are close to worthless in a serious conflict and thus the idea of ever placing them anywhere close to a BG is criminal. Whoever chose not to put ASW systems on board ought to be cashiered.

So that leaves the French Navy with only a single BG centered around CdG and lacking any AAW credible coverage and an ever marginal ASW protection from the six Georges Leygues Class destroyers (Tourville & De Grasse are about to be retired). Thus on a good day, France has a single BG comprised of 1 CVN, 2 DDG's, and 6 DD's. Not much of a force.

Until recently, the RN could put at least 2 BG's out. And while the AAW coverage of their escorts was also marginal, the RN could always count on the USN showing up--a luxury that France knows full well they may not have available. Lastly, at no time did the RN have to worry about their ASW escort for they possess a decent size force with very capable assets.

Two fleets that are not even close in capabilities. Not by a Texas mile.

The RN completely outclasses the Marine Nationale.

 

[KAPITAIN]

The french navy is not far from bankrupcy they cannot eve afford to send there submarines on full deployment they are still paying for the charlles de gaulle it became so expencive they cancelled the second one this is why they asked britian to buy one carrier from them.

the newest ships the french navy has are the lafayettes other than that most of thier ships are around 1970's and early 80's build hardly world class navy seeing as most ships do not go to sea often in fact the DDG Cassard hasnt been to sea in five years.

The type 23 out classes french DDG's and the type 45 is more powerful than the arliegh burke DDG infact the Type 45 could be classed as cruiser.

One type 45 is said to have the capibility of all 8 type 42's put together so even with less we still got more.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Dont know wether you know this but the USN also takes the British perisher course and i know of some USN personell that have been trained by the british.

we even have america people in our forces as do the american british persones.

 

[Sea Dog]

Dont know wether you know this but the USN also takes the British perisher course and i know of some USN personell that have been trained by the british.

we even have america people in our forces as do the american british persones.

Yes I know both.

 

[KAPITAIN]

you find that the ones who are willing to learn often make good skippers but the ones who enjoy partying well bildge rats

 

[Sea Dog]

you find that the ones who are willing to learn often make good skippers but the ones who enjoy partying well bildge rats

...there has never been a good party on the beach that I've turned down!

As for skippering, in peacetime your hands are so tied, that it's not even worth it. Nothing beats JO duty. Everything else is just one long headache until you get stars.

One of my fellow ex-JO's was offered an early command (PC), and he turned it down and left the USN--along with many of us--for a better life that was more lucrative and with less mickey mouse.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Just a small correction. Conventional Perisher is no longer run by the UK, it's run by the Dutch. The RN abandoned Perisher once they demobbed the Upholders.

In the RAN American trainees for conventional Perisher are subsetted onto a Collins sub billet and are then referred to the Dutch for grading. They undergo 6 weeks of "conventional acclimatisation"

USN acoustic warfare officer (equivalents) are also cross posted into the RAN and RN. IIRC its a 2 year posting on exchange.

again, IIRC, USN submariners are based out at HMAS Stirling initially.