Is Egypt up to something??

drg

New Member
Other day i was flicking through an old book i have here dated to 2000, and had a look at Egypt.
Said it had some 550 M1A1s, Apaches etc.
Well, it got me thinking, and then several reports emerged.
First Egypt's getting Apache Longbows (now it has received all of them), then its buying 2 E-2Cs from the US, then its getting its MiG-21s refurbished in Odessa, and now its acquiring 195 extra Abrams.
With the complete lack of threat towards Egypt on its borders I'm trying to understand what it is up to. Obviously Libya is arming up after years of junk sitting on its tarmacs etc, and there is instability in Sudan, but they wouldn't need Abrams and Longbows to guard against border incursions.
A secondary issue is what Egypt is going to do with the gear its going to clear out of its warehouses, which have ended up in Afghanistan etc over the years.
Anyways, that's a side issue.
But yeah, am i the only one a little suss on these purchases?
 

FSMonster

New Member
Yes, you're probably the only one. It's middle east, you're supposed to be prepared for any eventuality. Military power is a strong deterent and with an agressive Israel and unstable Africa you'd better be able to take care of yourself. Besides, why would you deal with border incursions with foot soldiers when you've got couple of thousand tanks at hand?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It's not oil but huge military aid by the US.
And this military aid is exactly the reason why the US was able to get them out of the Sovjet's sphere of influence into their own.

Without this military aid Egypt may well be back in bed with Russia and allied with Syria very soon.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Other day i was flicking through an old book i have here dated to 2000, and had a look at Egypt.
Said it had some 550 M1A1s, Apaches etc.
Well, it got me thinking, and then several reports emerged.
First Egypt's getting Apache Longbows (now it has received all of them), then its buying 2 E-2Cs from the US, then its getting its MiG-21s refurbished in Odessa, and now its acquiring 195 extra Abrams.
With the complete lack of threat towards Egypt on its borders I'm trying to understand what it is up to. Obviously Libya is arming up after years of junk sitting on its tarmacs etc, and there is instability in Sudan, but they wouldn't need Abrams and Longbows to guard against border incursions.
A secondary issue is what Egypt is going to do with the gear its going to clear out of its warehouses, which have ended up in Afghanistan etc over the years.
Anyways, that's a side issue.
But yeah, am i the only one a little suss on these purchases?
You are probably the only one.

And if you're asking if Egypt's doing all of this because of Israel then you're correct. Israel and Egypt are in a so-called "Cold Peace" and Egypt's big army is meant to deter Israel.

It would be better if both had better relations, but that's not the case.

P.S. We have 1,005 M1A1's (not 550), 7 E-2 Hawkeyes, and I think we retired the MiG-21's in 2006 or 2007. It would make more sense for you to worry about the 220 F-16's and 20 Mirage 2000's we have. But you really shouldn't worry. We're peaceful people :).

And also all of our F-16's are downgraded and capable of only firing AIM-7 not the AIM-120. The same thing with the Apaches, none of them have the Longbow radar. And we currently have no fighters capable of firing a decent BVR missile.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
If one had to "fight" with four-five decades of eastern bloc junk, it is not surprising that they went for quality finally.
I don't know about anything else, but as far as Egypt's Air Force during the Arab-Israeli wars goes, the equipment we (Egypt) got from the Soviets was actually very good.

It was just the training that they gave our pilots that sucked. During the 60's the Soviets only trained our pilots to fly at Mach 2 and at high altitude to intercept a target with an IR-missile. In fact an Egyptian pilot was later interviewed saying that because he flew low and subsonic he got in trouble.

The Soviets believed so much in the idea of flying high and fast to intercept a target with a missile that the first MiG-21's they gave us didn't have any guns.

Our pilots got very little training when it came to dog-fighting. They were taught the very basics of dog-fighting and didn't practice them much.

This ended up screwing us later on because (as it turned out) all the Israelis were doing was learning how to dog-fight (in Mirage III's no less).

Training moved away from this kind of thinking after the Six-day war and the Egyptian Air Forces training improved throughout the War of Attrition.

But even then our pilots performances' we hampered because our senior military officials had a knack for forcing pilots into different planes at different times. One Egyptian Mirage 5 pilot who was trained in France ended up dying in a MiG-17!

So it was really Egypts fault that those planes didn't perform as advertised.

They should have listened to the people in the Egyptian Air Force who were complaining to them about the extremely unrealistic Soviet training their pilots were getting. It's also Egypt's fault that it made pilots fly different planes at different times.

You can read more about it here: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_263.shtml

The link above explains it in better (and more accurate) detail and has interviews of Egyptian Air Force personnel.

What would be interesting would be an anti-shah styled uprising a la 1979 which will once again put sophisticated arms into the hands of the mullahs.
The Muslim Brotherhood has been trying to take over since the 40's now with no success. Their movement isn't very popular because their Saudi-style Wahhabi mentality doesn't sit well with many Egyptians but after years of living under a US-supported autocrat and witnessing your country fall victim to moral decay, government corruption and poverty, you become willing to support anything which isn't corrupt which is the only good thing about the Muslim Brotherhood.

Other than that they are bunch of fanatic idiots who tried to assassinate Gamal Abd El-Nasser before and are probably the ones who killed Anwar Al-Sadat and are responsible for staging terrorist attacks against tourists. I really don't know why human rights groups even defend these people.

Any support for them is dying down because people are expecting Gamal Mubarak to succeed were his father failed. People who dislike the current regime usually suggest people like Amr Mousa for President, not any Muslim Brotherhood member.

The recent stand-off with Iran also scared alot of people into not supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

The chances of the Muslim Brotherhood ever being in power are very low at best and non-existent at worst. Even if they try to stage a coup the military will just start slaughtering and imprisoning them en masse. Just like Gamal Abd- El Nasser did after they tried to assassinate him.

Still, its oil money now, nobody cares about the future.
We have no oil money.

It would be awesome if we did though...:D
 

Khairul Alam

New Member
You are probably the only one.

And if you're asking if Egypt's doing all of this because of Israel then you're correct. Israel and Egypt are in a so-called "Cold Peace" and Egypt's big army is meant to deter Israel.

It would be better if both had better relations, but that's not the case.
Isnt it ironic that US is showering Egypt with billions of dollars of military aid for "making peace" with Israel, while Egypt uses that aid to arm itself for any bitter eventuality with Israel?? :rolleyes:
 

funtz

New Member
If one looses sight of the capability/ability/diplomatic pull of moderation that this provides the great police man, yes that is Ironical.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Isnt it ironic that US is showering Egypt with billions of dollars of military aid for "making peace" with Israel, while Egypt uses that aid to arm itself for any bitter eventuality with Israel?? :rolleyes:
There are many reasons why the US gives billions of military aid to Egypt. Not just to arm against Israel.

One of the biggest reasons is that when Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel it knew it was about to lose major influence in the Arab world. It was in the interest of the US that this didn't happen seeing as how (at the time) it was one out of 22 Arab nations that wasn't in state of war with Israel and if Egypt could stay influential it could lead other Arab countries to sign peace with Israel same way it had gotten them to go to war with Israel. In the Middle East the only thing that gives you influence, other than oil, is a strong military. So in order to keep Egypt influential the US had to pour billions of dollars into reforming Egypt's military from the Soviet-equipped force it once was.

Of course there are other even more important reasons. Like giving the US major leverage with Egypt and so on.
 
Last edited:

Izzy1

Banned Member
Mod edit:

You know better than this Izzy. Do you wish to keep posting on DT or not?

AD
 
Last edited by a moderator:

contedicavour

New Member
Hasn't Egypt just bought a couple dozen MIG29SMT from Russia ?
I remember having this discussion a few months ago on this forum.
With F16s equipped only with AIM7 (while the Israelis have Derby fire and forget and AIM120C) no surprise Egypt is trying to get a hold of better missiles (and thus of the jets that go with them...).
I would expect a Mirage 2000 modernization with the very good MICA missiles. Short of having AIM120C, certainly one of the best alternatives around, especially in the IR version (longer ranged even than R73)

cheers
 

Manfred2

New Member
What could Egypt be "up to" ?

Without some serious capability for air or sea-lift, they are restricted to border lands, and Isreal is a can of worms that nobody in thier right mind wants any part of.

They used to administer Sudan, but that is another dissaster area, and would Egypt want to occupy such a vast area and assume all of it's problems?

What about Chad?
That place seems ripe for the picking, and there is all that Uranium up in the north end of the country.
Maybe Egypt is looking ahead, to what will be an increasingly valuable resource when oil starts running out...
 

ROCK45

New Member
border incursions

drg
and there is instability in Sudan, but they wouldn't need Abrams and Longbows to guard against border incursions.
I think both weapons platforms would do very well with dealing border incursions. One would have to be very prepared to go up against those two platforms overall.


eaf-f16
And we currently have no fighters capable of firing a decent BVR missile.
Is this true I didn't know that. Another question Egypt only bought 20 Mirage 2000s? No second follow up squadron? Seems odd must be costly to maintain just one squadron for spares, weapons, and personnel. Do you know how in general if the Mirage 2000s have a higher operational cost compared to the Vipers? Does Egypt like the K-8 jet trainers?

Thanks
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Is this true I didn't know that. Another question Egypt only bought 20 Mirage 2000s? No second follow up squadron? Seems odd must be costly to maintain just one squadron for spares, weapons, and personnel. Do you know how in general if the Mirage 2000s have a higher operational cost compared to the Vipers? Does Egypt like the K-8 jet trainers?

Thanks
I think Egypt mainly bought the Mirage 2000 to make the US give it the F-16. I say "give it" instead of "sell it" because Egypt gets F-16's via US military aid which means Egypt doesn't have to pay a penny for any of the F-16's it gets. Egypt doesn't have this luxury when acquiring weapons from France and has to pay in full for any French hardware it wishes to have. This makes the Viper considerably more attractive to Egypt than the Mirage 2000, hence the decision not buy anymore Mirage 2000's and just get acquire a large fleet of F-16's absolutely free of charge. :D

I'd say Egypt was never really considering buying more squadrons of M-2000's. The F-16 is also a much better multi-role fighter than the Mirage 2000 is because it has a bigger payload. I think the M-2000 might have a slight advantage against F-16 in air-air combat though.

As for the K-8E trainers, they're probably a big favorite in the Egypt because it is able to manufacture them locally. This gives Egypt alot of advantages because not only does it get ToT, this also creates jobs for Egyptians and makes the buy economically advantageous in some ways. But as far as performance goes, I honestly don't know.

Hope this helps! :)
 

ROCK45

New Member
K-8

Thanks eaf-f16 it does
Do you know if the K-8 could be used as a light-combat aircraft? Maybe in a COIN role? I keep thinking it's too small maybe I have the L-15 in my head? I always like small jets like advance trainers that could be used in a duel purpose. I find trainers both prop and jets interesting and think some advance jet trainers could be used as fighters for certain countries. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile
 

ROCK45

New Member
Egyptian Chopper Strays Over Gaza

Not a hot breaking story I saw this and thought I'll add it to the thread. It ended well at least nobody was hurt.


Egyptian Chopper Strays Over Gaza
7 hours ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The pilot of an Egyptian helicopter lost in the fog found himself over the Gaza Strip and under fire from Hamas militants Monday until Israeli warplanes escorted his aircraft back across the border, Egyptian and Israeli security officials said.

The red-and-white chopper strayed into the narrow coastal strip between Israel and Egypt shortly after Israeli forces withdrew from northern Gaza, concluding an offensive against rocket squads.

Hamas mistook the Egyptian aircraft for an Apache attack helicopter used by Israel in airstrikes and tried to shoot it down, the militant group said. There were no reports of injury to the pilot or any passengers.

The Israeli military said its radar picked up an unidentified aircraft crossing into Gaza airspace, which Israel controls. Fearing an attack, Israel scrambled jet fighters to investigate.

After a few tense minutes, Israeli radio operators contacted the pilot, who said he had lost his way. Israeli planes then escorted the wayward chopper back to the Egyptian border.

An Egyptian security official said the aircraft belonged to an oil company, while an Israeli defense official said it was a military helicopter. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the issue.

Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in 1979 but relations between them are cool.

link
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g4ryxRT9yhk-q9fxbgTRY2dJzN5QD8V64CEO0
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Thanks eaf-f16 it does
Do you know if the K-8 could be used as a light-combat aircraft? Maybe in a COIN role? I keep thinking it's too small maybe I have the L-15 in my head? I always like small jets like advance trainers that could be used in a duel purpose. I find trainers both prop and jets interesting and think some advance jet trainers could be used as fighters for certain countries. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile
It can be used as a light strike aircraft and I think it can be equipped with short-range missiles. I doubt its effectiveness, though. Maybe in the CAS role in an open desert battle field with no civilians around would be effective for it seeing as it can't be equipped with smart bombs.

Most new trainers are dual-role like that. Egyptian Alpha Jets can fire Exocet anti-ship missiles. An Egyptian Air Force Alpha Jet went to the Paris Air Show equipped with inert-warhead Exocet missiles once.

On a side note, I noticed that your smilies don't come out right and I think it's because you drag them into the text. Just click on them, don't drag them, and they should come out right. :D
 

contedicavour

New Member
Egyptian Alpha Jets with Exocet ?? They don't have radars so how are they supposed to handle a launch ?? Are you sure it wasn't just a potential weapons upgrade that never took place ?

cheers
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Egyptian Alpha Jets with Exocet ?? They don't have radars so how are they supposed to handle a launch ?? Are you sure it wasn't just a potential weapons upgrade that never took place ?

cheers
I'm not sure to be honest.



Maybe they have to get close enough for the active radar to work before firing them?:unknown

All I know is that they've had the Exocet put on them before.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Alpha Jet 3, aka Lancier, was designed to have a radar and carry Exocet. There was one flying prototype, modified from a Alpha Jet frame.

The Egyptian MS2 version included some electronics and avionics improvements later also used for the Lancier, but the radar definitely wasn't part of that.
 
Top